Talk:Croatian Liberation Movement

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Laughable[change source]

Holly cow, the article is mercilessly butchered! Only Croatian Ustashi party page and their 1971 pamphlet are worth of mentioning.--Sunil of India (talk) 12:39, 15 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

After the keep decision I "rewrote" the article. This was meant as a new start, as the original material that was there (and that had led to the deletion proposal) had many issues; amongst others, some of the sources were problematic, and most of the language was not simple. Wikipedia is not censored, so you can help improve the article. --Eptalon (talk) 19:35, 16 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Sunil is right. You "rewrote" it indeed i.e. butchered. Only "non-problematic" sources are the Croatian Ustashe sources!
  • Sunil, my dear friend! Please, translate the original version in Hindi and post it at Hindu Wikipedia. I will be obliged to you. There is a big problem with Wikipedia administrators. In the average, they are unemployed, 26 year old college dropouts. That is a reason for mental disorder which makes them "administering" 8-10 hours dayly this way--71.191.23.46 (talk) 11:39, 17 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Forgeries[change source]

We have in new "rewritten" version

One of the goals of the Croatian Liberation Movement is to re-establish the state of Croatia with the borders it had before the Second World War. At that time, the state also included Bosnia and Herzegovina.

The fact is: Croatia did not exist "with borders it had before the Second World War".

My original text

The head of US HOP chapter was Stjepan Hefer, minister of agriculture and food in the Pavelić's regime. After his death, another Ustaše high ranked official, Anton Bonifačić took over the HOP leadership. Bonifačić was a head of cultural affair of the Foriegn Ministry in the Ustaše regime. Bonifačić posed in public as a writer and an anti-communist, giving speeches and passing resolutions on the continuing struggle for the Independent State of Croatia.[8]. Bonifačić's presidency lasted from October 1975 through July 1981[9].

where the references used were:

[8]↑ Scott Anderson, Jon Lee Anderson: Inside the League: the shocking exposé of how terrorists, Nazis, and Latin American death squads have infiltrated the world Anti-Communist League, Dodd, Mead, 1986, pages Z-76, 42 [9]↑ American international law cases, Volume 1; Oceana Publications, inc Oceana, 2003 Alperin vs.Vatican bank article, page 268

was replaced by

In the United States, Anton Bonifačić took over the leadership of the HOP. Bonifačić was a writer and an anti-communist. He gave speeches on the struggle for Croatia's independence. Bonifačić's presidency lasted from October 1975 until July 1981.[7]

where the reference used was:

[7]↑ American international law cases, Volume 1; Oceana Publications, inc Oceana, 2003 Alperin vs.Vatican bank article, page 268

So, administrator Osiris, posting under Anubis name, deleted original reference, distorted the text and left reference not supporting his distortion! Anderson and Anderson were clear: Bonifačić was a head of cultural affair of the Foriegn Ministry in the Ustaše regime. Bonifačić posed in public as a writer and an anti-communist, giving speeches and passing resolutions on the continuing struggle for the Independent State of Croatia.

Shame on Wikipedia for allowing and promoting forgeries and censorchip!--71.191.23.46 (talk) 13:26, 17 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not seeing the issue. Except that perhaps the source should be replaced with something that isn't self-published. I reworded your original text because, as should be obvious now, it was copied word-for-word from the source text. So it was plagiarism. I also reworded it to simplify it, since this wiki is written is simple English. If something has been lost in translation, please point it out. I'm not seeing it. Is it the "posed in public" part? Because he was definitely a writer. Osiris (talk) 13:58, 17 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • So, lying further eh! Noting is self-published, nothing was copied word-for-word from the source text. Everything was strictly referenced, therefore plagiarism is opted out! All references are about terrorism which you removed completely from the text. Certainly, Bonifacic was an Ustashe by many references. Writer?! Maybe, a scribe? Or a pamphlet writer?--71.191.23.46 (talk) 14:43, 17 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
After I took the decision to keep the article, I "re-started" with a minimal form, which was intended for expansion later. As to Croatia not existing beofre; as I am told in 1918, there was the Kingdom of Serbs, Croats and Slovenes (which existed until 1941, and which was renamed to Kingdom of Yugoslavia later (around 1929). From 1943 to 1991, there was the Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia (of which Croatia was a part). When I talking about "the borders (Croatia) had before WW II" I was referencing the Kingdom of Serbs, Croats and Slovenes/Kingdom of Yugoslavia". --Eptalon (talk) 20:35, 17 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
According to a government website he was quite a prominent writer. That he was a "terrorist" is really not supported by any reliable sources. Anderson's work (which doesn't call him a terrorist) represents only his own opinion, and it doesn't appear to be a prominent enough opinion to give it any weight in an article about the organisation as a whole. Our guideline tells us to avoid politically charged labels unless they're very widely applied to the subject by reliable sources. As for plagiarism, your work was indeed copied word-for-word— in fact, if you copy the whole two sentences to your Ctrl+F box, you'll notice that string appears exactly twice on this page. If you can suggest an equally simple reword that doesn't make any undue claims about the person, we can use that instead. Osiris (talk) 01:45, 18 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Request for Comment: Political pamphlet[change source]

As re-written, this article has no encyclopaedic value. It is reduced to the level of political pamphlet aimed to portrait a Croatian Ustahsi redux as a political party.

This way Wikipedia is here abused to conform to the private political interest one of its administrators.

My proposal is to go back to the IP version and do some minor improvements:

1) Several members of this organization were involved in the terrorist attacks in Yugoslavia, arrested there and were, on June 25 1964, sentenced for manslaughter and other terrorist acts.

I verified this and did not find anything about manslaughter. If there is no source stating it explicitly, then I'd like to take out manslaughter and other.

2) It shall be mentioned that this terrorist organization described itself as revolutionaries akin to American and French revolutionaries of 18th century.

3) Un-quoted and referenced text put under quotes.

  • For proposal

for: as per proposal above--71.178.108.23 (talk) 02:12, 12 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

  • Against proposal

--Sunil of India (talk) 20:20, 6 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Doesn't address what was wrong with the previous version, and there really shouldn't be any quotes in a simple-English article. A community discussion decided that the previous article was many things: very dubious, poorly referenced, incomprehensible, way too complex. This version is much, much better: it's simpler, easy to read, the text matches the references and it's a neutral description of the subject. If there are other specific portions you disagree with, as you did previously in the threads above, bring them up here and we will endeavour to address them together. Osiris (talk) 00:08, 13 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • This 'neutral description', in the article and here, is a language of falsehood and distortion: for example
  1. HOP was formed by Croatians in exile. - HOP was established by Pavelic and his Ustashi subordinates
  2. Ustaše was movement with nationalistic ideas - Croatian Ustashi, a terrorist, Nazi-like organization which run a bestial and murderous regime during WWII; a good insight about this group can be found in the Encyclopedia of the Holocaust (there is 15 articles describing the true nature of this terrorist movement)
  3. is to re-establish the state of Croatia with the borders it had during the Second World War. - shall go into Neo-Nazism, section Croatia; moreover there is no state of Croatia, there was the Independent State of Croatia a puppet state of German Nazis and Italian fascists
  4. poorly reference, incomprehensible - baseless disqualifications, incivilty, lack of basic communication ethics
  5. way too complex another baseless disqualification; the article was, by its structure, simple series of events
  6. Some of them were said to have gone on military training exercises with the Australian Army Reserve, using the army's base at Wodonga in Victoria. - a blatant distortion of the information coming from relevant references; it was a Croaatian Ustashi terroris camp, which trainees were captured and tried in Jugoslavia.
  • Further, many references finding facts about terrorism (political and combative) are completely excluded from the text and disrespected the references used in the new version.
  • The new version is not far from many Croatian Ustashi blogs on the internet
  • Self-praise of this user (Osiris) (This version is much, much better) is actually incivilty (Wikipedia parlance) and lack of academic attitude and basic communication ethics.--Sunil of India (talk) 16:59, 18 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]