Talk:Achraf Baznani

This article (or one that was redirected to it) was nominated for deletion on 24 June 2015. The result of the discussion was keep.

Defects[change source]

Most refs are just puffs and lack professional criticism: as an article this skates on thin ice. He has won awards. That's good, and relevant, but almost all the film awards are in his own country. I can see he has talent, but I'm not really convinced he ranks as notable. Looking at the En wiki description of the Sundance Film Festival, I do not agree that the awards to Baznani were from equivalent festivals. Hype and promotion are all over the film and photography world, and all over the refs on this article. Macdonald-ross (talk) 06:58, 2 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Notable[change source]

The artist is known as a surreal photographer. His work was published on front cover of many magazines and on a famous book by Dr Ingrid Gardill "Internationale Kunst Heute 2015". I think this talented artist must be on wikipedia. 41.140.168.58 (talk) 20:33, 4 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

The community already determined he met the notability guidelines, even if only minimally. Since you know something about him, what magazine covers has he been on? Better, what articles are there on him? Of course, this does not include any already cited in the article. We can't use anything written by the author or press releases by him or anyone who represents him. They need to be independent sources. They also need to be reliable sources. See what you can find. User:Rus793 (talk) 22:14, 4 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Sure I am not representing the artist, but an article by Dr. Ingrid Gardill is published on the book Internationale Kunst Heute 2015. Dr. Ingrid Gardill is a curator and art historien. 41.140.168.58 (talk) 01:52, 5 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

We experienced lots of problems with references about that photographer: they were rarely trusted references. You should maybe pay more attention on this^^

Heddryin (talk) 18:16, 21 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Can you provide some of this sources? 105.157.155.74 (talk) 18:11, 22 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

QD denied[change source]

A QD for this article was denied on 5 July 2015, as the article had only just been through an RFD process where the decision was to keep.--Peterdownunder (talk) 01:56, 5 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Copyview[change source]

The text in this paragraph [1] is copied from a comment in [2]. — This unsigned comment was added by 41.140.156.231 (talk • changes) at 09:34, 23 July 2016‎.

Text removed. For future reference, the template goes on the article page, not the talk page. --Auntof6 (talk) 10:07, 23 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you. Keep up the good work 41.140.156.231 (talk) 10:19, 23 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Accusations of plagiarism[change source]

On April 29th, 2015, Joel Robinson, a canadian photographer, accused of plagiarism Achraf Baznani, proving in a long article, published both on his website and petapixel.com, that the moroccan photographer stole his work^[1] · ^[2].

I guess this time nobody will say it's a copyright infringement.

Thanks for your time! Heddryin ^[🔊] 17:39, 24 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Article is written by JR himself in both blogs without mentioning Achraf Baznani! You try to advertise JR and to harm the notability of the artist Baznani. It must be neutral sources! JR is accused of plagiarism^[3] before the date of publication of these defects charges against Achraf Baznani! [3] — Preceding unsigned comment added by 105.157.109.151 (talk • contribs)

Yes. And hebernews.com is on the same webserver than baznani.com

You are manipulating sources. As you tried to do on WP:fr.

Heddryin ^[🔊] 02:54, 26 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I have to partly agree with the anonymous editor here. Joel Robinson did not mention the alleged plagiarising photographer by name, nor was there any link provided to tie Achraf Baznani to the plagiarism accusation. The provided sources, at best, can only show that Joel Robinson's works were plagiarised, but by whom, we can't say in the article (based on current sources) without it being libelous. Chenzw Talk 11:44, 27 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@Chenzw:

Does this one fit your criterias ? I'm sorry, but it's a french source: here. This one is in french too : [4]. If you need some help for translation, don't hesitate to ask.

Heddryin ^[🔊] 06:06, 28 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@Heddryin: I think ideas can't be protected. [5] 196.217.108.152 (talk) 09:37, 29 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@Heddryin: your second source appears to be dead. Can you re-confirm the URL?

@Macdonald-ross: can I trouble you to verify the above source? Also as a note to IP: whether you think ideas can be protected or not is irrelevant to this discussion. Chenzw Talk 16:33, 30 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@Chenzw:

The second source (lockerdome) seems OK to me. It redirects you to hebernews.com. If you compare with this one, you'll see that Baznani does not simply copy pictures, but also newspapers: hebernews.com and baznani.com are on the same webserver. Both site often 'backdate' their publications to manipulate information. We had tons of problems with those sites on WP:fr.

The first source (l'économiste) talks about Baznani and his plagiarisms.

You should also read this : User talk:Auntof6/Archives/2016#Achraf Baznani. It may help you understand that 41.* and 105.* and 196.* IPs are here the same person, changing baznani.com as they want things to be written on WP, or deleted.

We all waste our time with those people. On WP:fr, we found the best way to get rid of those people: we deleted the page, as we could not verify any information without being manipulated. If you can understand french, or translate it, please read this : fr:Discussion:Achraf Baznani/Suppression

Thanks a lot for your time.

Heddryin ^[🔊] 16:56, 30 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@Chenzw: I can verify that Robinson mentioned the issue on his website ([6]). As far as I can see he did not name Baznani as a culprit in the section I read.
Next, it is correct that an idea cannot be copyrighted or patented. However, when the idea is reified (made into something) then that something may be the subject of a copyright or a patent. There are some exceptions where countries had no such laws at the time the object was created, or countries which do not recognise international agreements on such. Disputed cases may be taken to court as civil cases. Place of publication and/or registration are usually the places where cases are tried.
Furthermore, irrespective of general civil law, WP does of course, require creators' rights to be respected. That is one of the main reasons why we do not (or should not) accept unsourced and unattributed material.
I should mention that modest excerpts from longer documents are permitted. This is important in cases where an author's exact phrasing is desired.
The source in French reads: "Œuvres plagiées? Baznani est aussi un artiste controversé. Tout faux pas est souvent sévèrement puni sur la toile. C’est ainsi, qu’il est accusé de plagiat, preuve à l’appui, par le photographe canadien Joel Robison. En effet, ce dernier a publié sur différents sites quelques-unes de ses propres photos face à celles de Baznani, et force est de constater qu’il s’agit de bien plus qu’une simple inspiration". This is a fairly straightforward translation of the complaint in Robinson's blog, and in this case it does so under a heading of "Achraf Baznani: Un artiste surnaturel". Macdonald-ross (talk) 18:03, 30 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

↑ Joel Robinson (April 29th, 2015). "When Imitation Stops Being Flattering". Retrieved July 24th, 2015. {{cite web}}: Check date values in: |accessdate= and |date= (help)
↑ Joel Robison (April 30th, 2015). "When Imitation Stops Being Flattering". Retrieved July 24th, 2015. {{cite web}}: Check date values in: |accessdate= and |date= (help); Unknown parameter |site= ignored (help)
↑ "When Imitation Stops Being Flattering". February 20th, 2015. Retrieved February 20th, 2015. {{cite web}}: Check date values in: |accessdate= and |date= (help)

Need to mention claim of plagiarism[change source]

We cannot avoid this. As I say above, There is a claim of plagiarism, and he is named. Both are connected events by different authors, as explained above. We must say this, using quotation marks for text directly quoted, plus references to each quotation. I would much have preferred to see this page deleted, but now even I have to agree the accusation has made him notable. To let it stand without mentioning the claim is not to be contemplated. I will do it in a few days, if no-one else does. Macdonald-ross (talk) 11:14, 2 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I agree. --Thibaut120094 (talk) 15:17, 7 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks a lot. Heddryin ^[🔊] 19:25, 7 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@ Macdonald-ross : please don't forget this

Heddryin ^[🔊] 04:11, 19 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

You are talking about another guy! [7] 105.156.117.217 (talk) 12:52, 20 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I strongly suggest that editors who can read French look at the French wiki's discussion which led to the deletion of their article on Baznani: [8]. This is the kind of topic where they are very much better placed than ourselves to decide notability. It troubles me that we decided to keep this article, Macdonald-ross (talk) 07:36, 20 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

The guy who stole the images is Karanbir Singh [9] 105.156.117.217 (talk) 12:52, 20 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

To make things clear, Baznani has never removed Robinson's image and replaced it with one of himself as you said, I have prouf that the indian Photographer Karanbir Singh do that and replace Robinson's image with one of himself here: [10] and the original are here [11] [12] 105.156.117.217 (talk) 13:01, 20 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Maybe Singh used Robinson's work: this is not what we are talking about.

But the FB picture you're talking about was posted on July, 25th 2015. Robinson's article was published on April, 29th 2015.

I'm pretty sure he doesn't speak about Singh. And the drench newspaper talks about Baznani.

Heddryin ^[🔊] 00:31, 21 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I think Karanbir Singh's images are the same used on Joel's article on petapixel [13] and [14], He is the guy who use Joel's images for example [15] and [16] you can see that Singh replace Joel body and use the reste of the image. 41.141.218.227 (talk) 10:52, 21 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Again, for the record, it has been verified through the source(s) mentioned above (eg. "Achraf Baznani: Un artiste surnaturel") that Achraf Baznani did indeed plagiarise. Whether any other additional people also plagiarised Joel Robinson's work is irrelevant to our discussion here, and does not in any way excuse/justify Achraf Baznani's behaviour. Robinson himself also acknowledges at least two occasions of plagiarism:

"A few days a go (sic) a friend sent me a message linking me to another artist’s page on Facebook..."
"Like I mentioned at the start, things come in groups and the very next day I ended up finding another photographer on Facebook..." (emphasis mine)

--Chenzw Talk 11:47, 21 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

You must mention that Joel himeself stole other artists works, all works are not original [17] 41.141.218.227 (talk) 15:34, 21 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Why so? This is not an article about him. Chenzw Talk 04:13, 22 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

False accusations[change source]

[18] in this passage originals all Had a photo of himself in a the middle of a graphic design of Some Kind. In Each box Baznani removed Robinson's picture and REPLACED it with one of himself. The author publishes lies about Baznani and accuses him of doing things that never been, the reality is an Indian artist who is accused of the fact with evidences [19] [20] [21] [22] 41.141.218.227 (talk) 16:31, 21 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

[1] Joel Robinson (April 29th, 2015). "When Imitation Stops Being Flattering". Retrieved July 24th, 2015. {{cite web}}: Check date values in: |accessdate= and |date= (help)

[2] Joel Robison (April 30th, 2015). "When Imitation Stops Being Flattering". Retrieved July 24th, 2015. {{cite web}}: Check date values in: |accessdate= and |date= (help); Unknown parameter |site= ignored (help)

[3] "When Imitation Stops Being Flattering". February 20th, 2015. Retrieved February 20th, 2015. {{cite web}}: Check date values in: |accessdate= and |date= (help)

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