Talk:Paul Keres

Ahsoous and me tried to revert the vandalism Мартин Мягер was performing all over Paul Keres' pages in many languages. Avjoska (talk) 18:24, 30 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

You need to discuss your reasons in detail. Macdonald-ross (talk) 18:49, 30 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

When I see a new user undoing revisions by an established user, I normally undo. The software kept logging me out so I edited as an IP. --98.221.179.18 (talk) 19:37, 30 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

It was cross-wiki vandalism which made by Мартин Мягер and don't forget that Estonia had never been part of the USSR de jure. -- Ahsoous (talk) 01:07, 31 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

This debate will be settled by reliable sources.

Reliable independent reference sources list Keres as Soviet as well as Estonian. Example: "Giocatore sovetico del origine estone". Chicco, Adriano & Porreca Giorgio 1971. Dizionario enciclopedico degli Scacchi. Mursia, Milano. p289
FIDE, the governing world chess organisation, listed him as a Soviet player, and confirmed him as grandmaster in 1950.
Keres played many times for the Soviet Union in chess olympiads and other international team matches. Keres also participated many times in the Soviet championship. During all this time Keres possessed and used a USSR passport. All this proves that, after the war, he continued his profession as a USSR player.
The Soviet Union was a foundation member of the United Nations, and permanent member of the Security Council. Estonia was not a member of the United Nations.
Estonia was annexed; its new status was as the Estonian Socialist Soviet Republic, part of the USSR. During that period, it was not an independent country.

These are not value judgements, just facts. Macdonald-ross (talk) 10:59, 31 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I should have added the following, from Hooper & Whyld's The Oxford companion to chess, p197:

"When the war in Europe ended he returned home, but not before making a deal with the Soviet authorities. In return for promising not to interfere with Botvinnik's challenge to Alekhine, he would be 'forgiven' for playing in German tournaments". [That refers to chess played in Nazi-occupied areas during the war]. As he accepted his Soviet status to continue his profession, it must be right for us to list him as a Soviet player for that period. Macdonald-ross (talk) 11:12, 31 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

This cite means that You don't know nothing about reality about times when 20 millions people died in prison camps. Before You comment anything about Soviet Union please read The Gulag Archipelago-- Ahsoous (talk) 15:07, 31 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

These sources about what You are talking aren't reliable sources at all. Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania were never parts on USSR de jure. That was illegal occupation. And by the way in time of German occupation he represented Estonia (for example Salzburg, Madrid, Estonian Championships in 1943). So after war he had choice - to live in USSR or to DIE (and remember also about family, children etc.). Interesting what was Your choice? And Estonia was member of League of Nations. And Estonian SSR never was member of UN because it was occupied country and illegal regime. If You know something about history then You heard also about Estonian government in exile. -- Ahsoous (talk) 14:59, 31 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]