Talk:Sentō

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Other possible sections[change source]

So we've got manners and history of sento... Anything else we could put in there? Architecture and layout, perhaps? I think I saw a good pic for that on commons. Darkfrog24 (talk) 16:08, 8 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

This research paper looks like it might do as a source, if we can get enough others to show that the connection between sento and traditional medicine is a thing and not just this one research team's idea. Darkfrog24 (talk) 16:10, 8 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I see you finished writing hammam @Frontfrog:. Do you want to nominate or shall I? Darkfrog24 (talk) 19:41, 12 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Excellent conclusion. Darkfrog24 (talk) 21:37, 12 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Darkfrog24: Are you going to edit more? Frontfrog (talk) 03:14, 13 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Not tonight. The text I put under "architecture" is just a placeholder, to keep the article in readable, good-for-mainspace condition until you have time to write whatever you wanted to put there. Or until I do if you don't feel like it.
More sections... More sections... I'm not sure what "soaplands" is but I've heard the name. Maybe a section on that if appropriate. Maybe a section on pricing. Darkfrog24 (talk) 03:18, 13 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Yeah, more sections...but maybe it's enough already... I think no need to add pics more. If only one but actually it's really enough.

You can mention about pricing in history section or in some other suitable section. + mention about soaplands. Frontfrog (talk) 03:27, 13 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Today I had other things I had to do. I had a good idea, though: A section on super sento! Darkfrog24 (talk) 02:07, 14 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for your changes. Frontfrog (talk) 04:07, 14 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • I reread the article and it's funny about electric shocks.

By the way, I think it will be good if we add information about communication in sento. I mean a trip to sento is not only a take bath together but also a discussion of the political situation, the weather, etc. Frontfrog (talk) 09:17, 14 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Frontfrog: Digging through the Wikimedia Commons sento category gave me a headache. Almost all of them are exterior shots of specific sento that don't look much different from each other from the outside. You can start here if you want. I've got a bit of a Wikidata update to see to... Darkfrog24 (talk) 19:14, 15 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
That was all I had on super sento, actually. Darkfrog24 (talk) 20:42, 15 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Your addition to the architecture section gave me a lot to work with. I went through all the sento categories on commons, and these are the pictures I thought were good. I left out anything that looked like it was an onsen instead. Darkfrog24 (talk) 02:33, 16 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Ok. Thanks. I think it can be promoted now. But I don't really understand your last changes in culture section. Frontfrog (talk) 04:15, 16 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@Darkfrog24: And what you think about extension of architecture section or is that enough? EngWiki has a lot of information of changing room, bathing area, boiler room. Frontfrog (talk) 04:34, 16 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
That sounds like a good idea. Do you think want to translate or look at the source and write from scratch? Is it a source we can access? Darkfrog24 (talk) 21:58, 16 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
My last changes to the culture section? I kept spelling "hadaka no tsukiai" wrong. If you mean adding that bit at all, spending time together naked in this specifically Japanese (and perhaps Korean) way is something people go to a sento specifically to do. Figured it deserved a mention, if not a section all to itself. Or do you mean when I added the gallery? The change description marks that "Culture" because that's the section right before it. Darkfrog24 (talk) 22:04, 16 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
The error deleted my message but I write it again. We can use the sources which EngWiki offers to us. It can be faster and easier. I prefer this option. And then we'll write the main info and simplify it. Frontfrog (talk) 22:12, 16 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I like to find my own but that's a legit way to do it. The only problem is when the en.wiki source has a broken link or is an offline source, like a book still in the original dead tree format. Darkfrog24 (talk) 23:21, 16 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Ooops:) I screwed up. Then we'll search the sourches in the google. I wanted to go this way in the first version of my message as well. Frontfrog (talk)
It looks good to me.

https://www.dezeen.com/2020/09/06/schemata-architects-sento-bathhouse-renovation-tokyo-architecture/

https://www.archdaily.com/947215/koganeyu-schemata-architects-plus-jo-nagasaka Frontfrog (talk) 06:28, 17 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

And maybe this https://digjapan.travel/en/blog/id=11533 Frontfrog (talk) 06:33, 17 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Don't know actually about authority of this website. http://yabai.com/p/3297 Frontfrog (talk) 06:36, 17 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I found the ideal option for us. This book is so good! Frontfrog (talk) 06:39, 17 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@Darkfrog24: What do you think? Frontfrog (talk) 18:42, 17 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
De Zeen looks like an architecture or culture magazine, so it's RS. ArchDaily looks legit too.
Yabai looks impressive upon first blush, but I think it might be a student/amateur project, so it's not RS. [1]
DigJapan looks like a blog, so we can only take it if it's published by an expert, and I don't think it is. The rule is WP:SPS.
THAT BOOK LOOKS SO GOOD. University of Hawaii Press? We are good to go! Darkfrog24 (talk) 00:15, 18 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
The Scott Clark who is the author of this book looks like the same Scott Clark who wrote the chapter in the other one. So they're both good sources, but they're not independent of each other. Darkfrog24 (talk) 02:12, 18 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
So thank you so much for your work. Now is the time for proposal. Frontfrog (talk) 06:29, 18 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Good article proposal[change source]

I think there's a rule that says the last few changes to the article must be minor, like links and typo fixes. I'll see if I can find a few typos to fix. Darkfrog24 (talk) 15:37, 18 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Darkfrog24 @Frontfrog, congrats on your first good article! Hopefully, this is gonna be one of many to come. CactiStaccingCrane (talk) 10:20, 8 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
It passed? Oh hooray. It sure was neat working on this one. I am a big fan of hygiene. Darkfrog24 (talk) 14:41, 8 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I saw your fixes. Well-done! :) Frontfrog (talk) 16:53, 18 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

No, there's no time requirement like I thought. Yes, we do have to post on that page that we want the article to be evaluated for promotion.
However, before we do that, is there anything else you want to add? Do you feel the article is cohesive and complete as it is? I didn't read all of the book you linked to. Are there cool Japanese sento folklore spirits like the bannik in the Russian banya? Darkfrog24 (talk) 00:15, 19 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Well, we could put a section "In popular culture" and say "Much of the movie Spirited Away takes place in a sento." I didn't see the movie, so I don't know if it was a sento or an onsen. Darkfrog24 (talk) 17:40, 19 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
It's good idea. No need add info about Spirited Away but this source is good. Please look at the last section of this site. Frontfrog (talk) 18:14, 19 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I'd say no to that source. 1) That article is about onsen, not sento. 2) Kulture Kween looks like it's a blog written for fun by an amateur, so it's not WP:RS. Darkfrog24 (talk) 18:23, 19 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I've never promoted an article before. We don't do anything at this point, I don't think. We polished up the article. We posted the promotion recommendation. Now we wait to see what everyone else thinks. Only thing is that we should not make any big changes to the article while the proposal is pending. As you can see from other proposals on that page, they take a long time. Darkfrog24 (talk) 12:34, 20 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Incorrect info[change source]

Poor sources and mixing sento and onsen have introduced some flatly incorrect information.

People are not supposed to have tattoos. This is because, in Japan, people think of the Yakuza criminals when they see tattoos.

  • That is onsen. Many sento allow tattoos as they are essentially public health facilities. Good hygiene is important.

Men and women do not get in the same tubs today, but hundreds of years ago, they did.

  • Wrong. Mixed bathing was technically banned but common until the US occupation.

--Gotanda (talk) 01:16, 31 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Gotanda: always good to improve the article. Darkfrog24 (talk) 14:34, 1 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Jakpost and swimming suits[change source]

I removed thisː

Sometimes people wear bathing suits at super sentō instead of being naked.[8]

Bathing suits / swim suits are never mentioned in the article. Bathing suits are never worn in sento or in most super-sento. The article is primarily about saunas, and super sento are peripheral. Finally, a Jakpost lifestyle article is perhaps less reliable for information about Japan and Japanese culture than an article from local press. It assumes lower background knowledge. --Gotanda (talk) 23:39, 3 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I don't happen to remember which source that was in. It was a few months ago. Darkfrog24 (talk) 01:34, 4 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Jakpost was the source cited for that. It's in the history. The Jakpost article doesn't support that statement. Gotanda (talk) 02:33, 4 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Skinship passage[change source]

This is not supported by the cited ref. "Going to a sentō is part of the idea hadaka no tsukiai, spending time together naked. It is also called or "skinship," written sukinshippu in Japanese. Families, housewives from the same neighborhood, businessmen or classmates use the sentō as a place to spend time together naked, which makes them feel like a group."

Moreover the linked page, hadaka no tsukiai, is not linked in Japanese Wikipedia because it does not exist. There is a JaWP page about skinship. But it is brief and very poorly sourced. All of the sources are Western. This is the kind of overgeneralized Orientalizing view of "weird Japan" that is very common, but not helpful.

Passage removed. --Gotanda (talk) 00:12, 4 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

There are any number of reasons why jp.wikipedia might not have an article on any specific subject.
The passage about hadaka no tsukiai is from the cited source on pages 34 and 102: [2] I'd like to put the content back.
You keep saying things like "this is wrong" or "that doesn't exist." But you haven't said why you think it's wrong or why you think hadaka no tsukiai doesn't exist. We've got a reliable source (or what looks like a reliable source, at least) saying it does. Do you see something wrong with the book?
Or is this a firsthand experience thing? Maybe you're saying you lived in Japan for many years and this doesn't match what you saw and heard. That could be it. But you know other people can't use your experience as a source, right? We use it as a reason to check the source. Darkfrog24 (talk) 01:43, 4 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Socialization of children and general ideas about Japanese culture[change source]

For this statement see page 95 of the ref. "Parents would take their children to sentō to learn good manners, such as how to greet people, how to bathe without splashing, and general ideas about Japanese culture.[1]" It actually says that some people decry the decline in this socialization that perhaps used to happen. Vague, overemphasis, overgeneralization, and not supported by the ref. There are plenty of ways parents and communities teach those things. This is just reporting nostalgia for "the good old days." --Gotanda (talk) 00:33, 4 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

It is supported by the ref on page 95: [3] Look for the paragraphs that start with "Many Japanese ascribe..." and "Thus on the men's side today..." I must apologize: I have not learned how to make different pages of the same source book show up in the reference section.
Rewriting professional writing in simple English can be difficult. I have heard that the greater the number of people who try, the more accurate the Wikipedia article is. By all means, improve my phrasing. This is a shared project. Darkfrog24 (talk) 01:55, 4 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I did read that section starting Many Japanese ascribe carefully. The author is describing some letters to the editor in newspapers. Those are not reliable. The source does not say that the sento are for teaching something as broad as "general ideas about Japanese culture." The ref says that some people complain about "kids these days" and attribute their misbehavior to something--lack of sento-going as an educational experience. Not that that thing actually exists or ever existed. Taking kids to the sento is no more or less an educational experience than going to the supermarket, riding the train, going to the pool, or any other public social activity. --Gotanda (talk) 01:00, 5 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
You make a good point. Something about this is still bothering me, though. I'll give the matter more thought. Darkfrog24 (talk) 14:12, 5 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Yumizu mainly has a negative connotation or use like the most common collocation "spend money like water / yumizu no you ni." Sorry, I can't cite my dictionary directly. But here is another. The author of that source describes yumizu as "plenty of everything," but does not link that to a general love of hot water or bathing. -- Gotanda (talk) 00:57, 4 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The Clark source A View from the Bath defines "yumizu" on page 48: [4] Are you satisfied or do you still have concerns? Darkfrog24 (talk) 02:02, 4 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Read it again and you will see that you have added causation that is not there. Was "The Japanese people enjoy bathing in hot and cold water so much that it is in the language: The Japanese word yumizu means "hot and cold water" but it is also an expression meaning "plenty of everything."" The meaning does not come from sento. --Gotanda (talk) 00:52, 5 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Number of sento in Tokyo[change source]

The linked reference, BBC Travel, does indeed say how many sento there are in Tokyo as of 2020. Here are the exact words: "there are just 530 sento in operation in Tokyo today compared to more than 2,700 50 years ago, according to the Tokyo Sento Association." Here is the link: [5] Note: I did make a mistake, which you did catch. I put the tag < BBC > instead of <BBCT >. But I've fixed it just now. Do you still have concerns about this fact? Darkfrog24 (talk) 02:33, 4 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Check that, it was the BBC tagged source and not the BBCT tagged source. But this link just above should still work. Darkfrog24 (talk) 02:36, 4 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Neither of the BBC links adequately support the 530 number. One doesn't mention it. The other incorrectly links to a general source from the Tokyo Sento Association that has no information about the number of sento in Tokyo. That specific number is not supported. Please find a source for it, or leave it as citation needed. --Gotanda (talk) 02:43, 4 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Oh that's what's going on! The highlighted text where it says "Tokyo Sento Association" in the BBC Travel article isn't necessarily supposed to be "Here's our source for the number 530." It's supposed to be "Here's our source for what the Tokyo Sento Association IS." But I love this website... I'm going to see if we can use the TSA's own site as a source in the article.
See? These conversations have their frustrating bits but the article is better for it. Darkfrog24 (talk) 13:39, 4 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
No need to use both. Local general publication is more recent than travel site.--Gotanda (talk) 00:47, 5 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Proposed rule of thumb for sourcing[change source]

This is inspired by @Gotanda:'s concerns, but it would work for everyone.

  1. If a fact in the article is in a reliable source, then don't take it out unless there is a reason to think the source is wrong.
  2. The reason doesn't itself have to be a reliable source, but it should be stated.

For example, the statement "the Toyko Sento Association said there were 530 sento in Tokyo in 2020" is in one of our two BBC Travel sources. BBC is generally considered reliable. If anyone has a reason to think the "530" number is wrong, though, then we should remove the fact until we confirm. For example, if anyone says "I remember reading '2056 sento in 2019' but I dont' remember where I read it," that's not RS but it's a good enough reason or "I lived in Toyko for three years and no way is '530' right," that's not RS but it's a good enough reason. But if the only complaint is "Eh, I have a funny feeling," then maybe leave the content in for now.

Just because personal opinions and original research aren't appropriate sources for article content doesn't mean they don't matter at all. Darkfrog24 (talk) 13:39, 4 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The baths themselves and other facilities[change source]

For an article about sento, there is almost no information about the baths themselves. Mostly just from the diagram. Water, water temperature(s), depth, etc. All of that information should be sourced and included. Also, nothing about the washing facilities. There is one image at the end of the shower stations. They are not "showers" as commonly referred to in English. The taps, stools, bowls, and showers should all be described, including how they work. Finally, no mention of washing clothes (which is banned in sento) but many sento have washing machines for this purpose, or share the building with a coin laundry. They are a pretty prominent feature of many sento.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Gotanda (talkcontribs) 10:05, 22 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]