Talk:Hermann Göring

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As of 30 August 2009, this article is a very good article. (compare to current).
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PGA comments[change source]

I've tried to fix a few things, but I can't figure out how to change ...

  • "On March 14, 1916, he shot his first aggressive bomber." makes no sense to me. Did he shoot a bomber down, did he fly in the bomber? Is aggressive needed? If so it needs to be defined.

Good luck! fr33kman talk 16:02, 20 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

He shot his first bomber down. I fixed it. Regards, Barras (talk) 16:12, 20 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

More to fix:

  • in the first image caption, do we need a left and a right? I think just a left would suffice
Done --Peterdownunder (talk) 10:24, 23 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • "but he killed himself by using cyanide" the phrase "using cyanide" is an odd one, especially since the cyanide article doesn't really explain how it's used for suicide
Done --Barras (talk) 14:08, 23 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Hermann Göring had two brothers, Albert Göring and Karl Ernst Göring, and 2 sisters, Olga Therese Sophie and Paula Elisabeth Rosa." why don't the sisters have a last name?
Done --Barras (talk) 14:08, 23 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • "He visited the grammar schools" what does that mean? Like, he just went to tour them? Why is that needed in the article?
Is this time it was not very often that childreen visited the grammar school. So I think it is needed. --Barras (talk) 14:08, 23 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I still don't get it. Why would he be visiting? Was he taking a tour? Was he visiting family members? Either way (talk) 23:11, 23 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Done (visit is a false friend. Of course, I mean went to or attended) --Barras (talk) 12:54, 24 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • "was awarded the Iron Cross First Class in 1915, for observing France by plane.[5] In 1916, he was trained to fly a plane. " Somehow it needs to be explained how he did the observing of France in 1915 but didn't learn to fly until 1916. I assume he was in some observation part of the plane.
Done --Barras (talk) 14:08, 23 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The correction now reads: "for observing France by plane as an observer." Observing as an observer is repetitive.
Done --Barras (talk) 12:54, 24 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Rewrote the sentence to improve the flow. --Peterdownunder (talk) 09:03, 26 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • A link should be made for "The Red Baron"
Done --Barras (talk) 14:08, 23 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • "he met Adolf Hitler and became a member of the NSDAP" the NSDAP should be spelled out rather than jumping right into using the acronym
Done --Barras (talk) 14:08, 23 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Nazi time" is a really odd section header. There HAS to be something it can change to.
Done --Barras (talk) 14:26, 23 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • "he made Göring a minister of the Reich without a specific area" "without a specific area" should be cleared up.
This means, that he was a minister but without a ministry . I don't understand the problem. --Barras (talk) 14:08, 23 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
But area has so many different meanings. It could mean location. It could mean the total amount of surface. It needs to be explained better that he was without a specific job title more or less.
Done --Barras (talk) 12:54, 24 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • The next two sentences both start off "In ..., he was made..." one needs a different phrasing.
Done --Barras (talk) 14:26, 23 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • "On March 18, 1946, Göring was questioned by the Allies. The court reached a verdict that he was to be hanged. " How does he go from just being questioned to being on trial and convicted?
Done (I added a sentence) --Barras (talk) 14:26, 23 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
It still doesn't make too much sense. How does it go from the questions to the judges calling him guilty?
Done (I don't know if that is OK for you.) --Barras (talk) 13:18, 25 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I think that's it for now, Either way (talk) 00:12, 23 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

PVGA comments[change source]

In the heading, the sentence He was also a minister of the Third Reich. does not 'flow' with the sentence before it. Could you combine it or change the way the sentences are worded? Griffinofwales (talk) 15:15, 18 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks. I combined the two sentences. Barras || talk 15:18, 18 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The following statements are unsourced and should be.

  • From 1901, he lived at the stately home of his godfather Hermann von Epenstein.; - See reference 5, I don't add the ref after each sentences.
  • He attended the grammar schools in Fürth and Ansbach.; - See reference 6 and above.
  • In 1905, he went to a military school in Karlsruhe. He got his Abitur, and an officer exam, in 1912.; - See reference 7 and above.
  • When the First World War started, Göring had the rank of Lieutenant. He served in the infantry.; - See reference 8 "e was commissioned a second lieutenant in 1912, and was assigned to Alsace where he formed a cyclist corps." cyclist = infantry.
  • In 1916, he was trained to fly a plane. On 14 March 1916, he shot down his first bomber.;
  • His friend Bruno Loerzer got him to join the air force. In France, he flew as an observer, a person who looked for targets and enemy planes.;
  • In 1918, after he shot his 19th plane, he was awarded the Pour le Mérite (also called "The Blue Max").;
  • Between 1919 and 1921, Göring worked as a stunt pilot in Scandinavia.;
  • When Hitler became chancellor of the Third Reich in 1933, he made Göring a minister of the Reich without a specific area of responsibility. This means that he was not the head of a ministry. In April 1933, he was made minister president of Prussia.;
  • Between 1934 and 1935 he became minister of several agencies.;
  • In 1936, he sent the German Condor Legion to Spain to help Francisco Franco.; and
  • After this, he was imprisoned in Nuremberg. He was the third-highest-ranking Nazi official tried at Nuremberg. Only Reich President (former Großadmiral) Karl Dönitz and former Deputy Führer Rudolf Hess had higher ranks than Göring. The judges decided he was guilty. Because of this on 1 October 1946 the court reached a verdict that he was to be hanged. One day before he was to be hanged, he committed suicide by taking a tablet of cyanide.  Done sources are there.
  • This sentence does not make much sense when paired with the one before it. Therefore, he was awarded the Iron Cross First Class in 1915.

It's a great article, and it is VGA quality, but some more sources would help. Griffinofwales (talk) 15:24, 18 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Look for the semicolons (;). They are the dividers in between the sentences. Griffinofwales (talk) 15:26, 18 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry, but I changed the long ongoin text in smaller parts for a better reading. Barras || talk 15:29, 18 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you. I knew there was a better way. Griffinofwales (talk) 15:32, 18 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • I started above to check the references. It is always the same. The things are all mentioned in the next reference and I am not willing to add three times on three sentences after an other the same ref, because it is not helpful. Please claryfy the long point, which doesn't make sense to you, because it sounds fine to me. Barras || talk 15:44, 18 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • In France, he flew as an observer, a person who looked for targets and enemy planes. Therefore, he was awarded the Iron Cross First Class in 1915. - He was awarded due to the work as an observer. It makes sense to me. Barras || talk 15:52, 18 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Pmlineditor's review[change source]

Full review coming up. Pmlineditor  Talk 15:51, 18 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Kershaw reference is incomplete -- not usable[change source]

The first reference is simply "Kershaw 2008, p. 284." but has no information such as the book title, publisher, etc. Not a good reference and needs replacing with something complete and accessible if possible. Gotanda (talk) 00:43, 17 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Likewise for refs 2 and 3. Something got lost in the simplification it seems.
  • 2: Evans 2005, p. 358. (Author only. No title or publisher.)
  • 3: Nazi Conspiracy and Aggression 1946, pp. 100–101. (Title only. No author or publisher.)
These cannot be checked or used by a reader. Gotanda (talk) 00:45, 17 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Gotanda Good thing you noticed this. I have added a bibliography section containing the full refs for these books. Lights and freedom (talk) 01:14, 17 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you. I looked again and saw that and wondered how I had missed it. Fast work! Gotanda (talk) 03:52, 17 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Long defunct blog reference[change source]

Ref 15 is a webarchive of an ancient blog. Not a reliable source at all. Just some blog as far as I can tell. Searching on the author gives FB as the top result, not any academic or historical work. 

"The biography of Hermann Göring in "Meine Bibliothek"" (in German). Klaus Hylla. Archived from the original on 2009-12-21. Retrieved 2009-06-04.

Needs replacing with an updates set of reliable sources. Gotanda (talk) 01:00, 17 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I replaced this with inline citations to "The Reich Marshal: A Biography of Hermann Goering" by Leonard Mosley, 1974. Lights and freedom (talk) 03:43, 17 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Seems OK, but did you have the book handy? It can be really hard to verify some of these older books. --Gotanda (talk) 03:54, 17 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, I have access to a physical copy in a library. Lights and freedom (talk) 04:04, 17 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Cool! Gotanda (talk) 04:05, 17 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Primary not secondary source[change source]

This ref ("NS-Archive – documents: Adolf Hitler: political testament 1945. p. 7" (in German). Adolf Hitler. Retrieved 2009-06-04.) supports several statements but is a primary source in German and is not a reliable secondary source. Shouldn't this be replaced with a scholarly reference? --Gotanda (talk) 03:58, 17 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

After the War needs sources[change source]

There are several factual statements made there with no references, but these are major events that should be easy to source. The final quote has no source. All direct quotes need source. And, in this case it is a quote in translation so the source potentially makes a big difference. --Gotanda (talk) 04:05, 17 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

euronet.nl was just some guy's blog[change source]

This ref was used three times "Biography of Reichsmarschall Herman Goering". euronet.nl. Retrieved 2009-07-25. Is just a blog / personal site which is not reliable. There should be plenty of reliable sources out there in English for anything in this article. Replaced with "source?" --Gotanda (talk) 04:18, 17 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Geocities?[change source]

This ref is cited twice ("Hermann Göring". Rokas Pukinskas. Archived from the original on 6 February 2005. Retrieved 2009-07-24.) It is an archive of an old personal homepage on geocities. Not reliable. --Gotanda (talk) 07:11, 18 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Manvell reference seems questionable, but is hard to check[change source]

This is cited twice (Manvell, Roger; Fraenkel, Heinrich (2011-01-01). Goering: The Rise and Fall of the Notorious Nazi Leader. Skyhorse Publishing Inc. pp. 28, 29. ISBN 978-1-61608-109-6.). I cannot find any available reviews of the book such as Kirkus or Publisher's Weekly. Skyhorse publishing however has potentially low reliability as a possibly anti-Semitic publisher of conspiracy theories and basically stuff that gets dropped elsewhere. For such a notable figure there is no reason why there shouldn't be good, accessible references which are reliable. --Gotanda (talk) 07:18, 18 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Bibliography entry needs improvement[change source]

This ("Nazi Conspiracy and Aggression, Volume 2, Chapter XV, Part 3: The Reich Cabinet" (PDF). Office of United States Chief of Counsel For Prosecution of Axis Criminality. 1946. Retrieved 20 August 2017.) leads to a Library of Congress page but not the document. Not sure if that document should be used as a ref anyway as a primary source. Secondary sources are preferable, right? --Gotanda (talk) 08:58, 19 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

thirdreich.net[change source]

This ref ( "Hermann Göring". thirdreich.net. Archived from the original on 9 January 2009. Retrieved 2009-07-24.) also has problems. Just a snapshot of a personal webpage. Does not look reliable. --Gotanda (talk) 09:02, 19 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Block reference incorrect[change source]

The reference "Block, Maxine (1971). Current Biography: Who's News and Why 1941. New York: H. W. Wilson. p. 327–330. ISBN 9780824204792." does not include the information about Göring. Replaced with "citation needed". --Gotanda (talk) 20:56, 28 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Gotanda The information is (mostly) there, but the link was wrong (the link goes to the 1942 volume instead of the 1941 volume which discusses Göring). It says the following:

Hermann Goering was born at Rosenheim, Bavaria on January 12, 1893, the son of Dr. Heinrich Ernst Goering, who had been the first Governor of the German Protectorate of South West Africa and Elizabeth (Lohe) Goering. He grew up in the mountains and forests of South Germany and Austria, spending much of his childhood in a medieval castle in Franconia.[1]

This does say the place he was born, his father, and that his father was in charge of South West Africa. For some reason it says the wrong name for his mother (Elizabeth instead of Franziska). It doesn't say that his father was a judge, that he was appointed by Bismarck, that his title was Reichskommisar, that this started in 1885, or that the castle belonged to a friend of his mother.

References

  1. ↑ Block, Maxine (1971). Current Biography: Who's News and Why 1941. New York: H. W. Wilson. p. 327–330. ISBN 9789997376671.

Lights and freedom (talk) 22:45, 28 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

OK. So, that's the issue. The link was wrong. Needs fixing Either way, there must be a better, more readable/accessible, and reliable reference than an 80 year old who's who. Many of the references on this are, as I have noted, very weak to say the least. Gotanda (talk) 03:42, 1 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Cyanide tablet[change source]

The article reads, "but there was a claim that he was given it by an American soldier who was in love with a German woman who was in touch with him." This is misleading. "There was a claim" is a vague passive hiding the actor who made the claim. The cited ref makes no mention of being in love with. Exaggerated. --Gotanda (talk) 01:43, 27 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Geocities reference removed[change source]

The geocities blog at https://web.archive.org/web/20050206044101/http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/Congress/2106/bios/goering.htm was cited twice. Not reliable. We need some useful, reliable, and authoritative sources on these. The reference list on articles should be a good start for readers to learn more. --Gotanda (talk) 10:13, 22 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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