Talk:Evangelos Zappas

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Pre-required reading[change source]

Talk:Evangelos Zappas#Aromanian_origin; Mark Miller's verdict: "Sources simply do not demonstrate strong, multiple reliable referencing for exceptional claims and quotes from a living person. While there is more, that is the nutshell." Kojak Savalas (talk) 19:15, 22 August 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

That thing is from 2015 and it doesn't matter. English Wikipedia still includes his Aromanian ancestry claim because it is supported by a large amount of sources. Stop removing sourced content Kojak Savalas. Super Dromaeosaurus (talk) 22:32, 22 August 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Ageism is unacceptable. The discussion's verdict is a pre-requisite. Kojak Savalas (talk) 22:51, 22 August 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
You are not allowed to remove sourced content from Wikipedia. You have no rational way of justifying it. That's why you resort to a random discussion that is not even enforced on the edition of Wikipedia it took place. Super Dromaeosaurus (talk) 23:38, 22 August 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
"no rational way", you say? The discussion which you either cannot read or refuse to read is very rational. It addresses and refutes the substandard sources you treat as Gospel Truth along with the either-or misframing of two historical figures. Calling the discussion "random" is therefore no excuse for not reviewing it and comprehending its relevance here. And until you take the discussion seriously, the answer is, as you would say, "nope". Kojak Savalas (talk) 01:18, 23 August 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
"the substandard sources you treat as Gospel Truth" really? So you will just reject the sources I use because you don't like them? Super Dromaeosaurus (talk) 08:21, 23 August 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
No. The sources are substandard because the discussion has rationally determined that they are (among other things). Kojak Savalas (talk) 21:49, 23 August 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Not really. Plus three sources were discussed and now there's seven. Again, give an explanation as to why should you be allowed to remove sourced content. Super Dromaeosaurus (talk) 00:41, 24 August 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Yes really. What biographical facts do your seven sources give proving that Evangelos Zappas was Aromanian and/or Vlach? Do your sources clarify the meaning of the broad word Vlach if used? David C. Young, an historical specialist on the modern Olympics, says that Zappas' background was Greek and backs it up with facts about Zappas' Greek parents, Vasileios and Sotira. Young does not mention Zappas having a Vlach and/or Aromanian background because there are no facts to support such a background. So if you are looking for an explanation, then look no further than the discussion which, again, you either cannot read or refuse to read. Kojak Savalas (talk) 01:44, 24 August 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
No we're not playing that. "Vlach" means Aromanian in this context. Period. In that discussion nobody even knew anything about the Aromanians. At one point the reviewer offered to include a statement saying Evangelos was of Vlach descent but not of Aromanian one. He also said "Vlach" was a pejorative term and that it is not even clear that the Aromanians are an ethnicity. He had no idea about the dymanics of this region of the Balkans. That's what the discussion you keep mentioning really is about. It is just trash. This is the last time I will discuss anything about that discussion.
Whether you like it or not there's a very wide amount of sources attributting Aromanian descent to Zappas. Many being Greek, it's not only "Romanian nationalism" you keep bickering about. And I could add even more than seven. There's no reason to exclude one of his two claimed ethnicities. There's no reason to exclude seven sources. And I didn't even remove the Greek one. There's no harm in including both claims, widely supported by sources. Super Dromaeosaurus (talk) 09:26, 24 August 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Nonsense. Mark Miller investigated the words Vlach and Aromanian with reliable sources and rationally determined that they are not coterminous (e.g., "Just because a source calls a person a 'Vlach' does not mean they are not Greek."). Period. Your claim that he and the other discussants "had no ideas about the dynamics of this region of the Balkans" (what dynamics?) is thus baseless. Also, the sources you uncritically stuffed into the entry do not clarify the meaning of the designations they affix to Zappas and give no biographical facts to support said designations. They are unreliable sources per WP:V under "Dubious sources" and so neutrality is no excuse to endorse unreliable information. And it is telling how you keep mentioning "sourced content" but do not take seriously whether or not they are accurate. The discussion which you flippantly dismiss does not. So I am going to review your sources and see if they are reliable per the criteria of supporting biographical facts following WP:V:
  • Elaine Thomopoulos. 2012. The History of Greece, ABC-Clio: "Finally, Evangelis Zappas, a Vlach by descent, took the idea and ran with it, paving the way for the modern Olympics." [From the discussion: "ABC-CLIO/Greenwood is hit or miss as far as tertiary sources go and definitely miss when compared to the reputable secondary sources already in the entry." And per the discussion's logic, Thomopoulos gives no clarification of the designation "Vlach" and no biographical facts to support her affixing the designation to Zappas. Conclusion: DUBIOUS SOURCE]
  • Pericles Smerlas. 1999. About Greece, Greek Ministry of Press and Mass Media, Secretariat General of Information: "Some of the biggest national benefactors and personalities of the Greek history belong to Vlach families, like Pavlos Melas, Evangelos and Konstantinos Zappas, Stefanos and Ion." [From the discussion: "the Greek Ministry of Press and Mass Media is a government agency and not an organization qualified in researching and composing a sober history of Zappas and the modern Olympics." And per the discussion's logic, Smerlas gives no clarification of the designation "Vlach" and no biographical facts to support his affixing the designation to Zappas. Conclusion: DUBIOUS SOURCE]
  • Ioannis Kaphetzopoulos. 2000. The Struggle for Northern Epirus, Hellenic Army General Staff, Army History Directorate: "It is an undisputed fact that the Vlachs joined their fate with that of Greece, and demonstrated their identity by their struggles and sacrifices, as well as in other ways...Kolletes and Spyridon Lampros were Vlachs. So were the great national benefactors George Averoff, Nicolaos Stournares, Tositsas, Sinas, Evangelos and Konstantinos Zappas..." [From the discussion: "the Hellenic Army History Directorate is great for Northern Epirus and even military history, but not for the specific history of the modern Olympics and its founder" And per the discussion's logic, Kaphetzopoulos gives no clarification of the designation "Vlach" and no biographical facts to support his affixing the designation to Zappas and others. Conclusion: DUBIOUS SOURCE]
The sources from Thomopoulos, Smerlas and Kaphetzopulos are, for Mark Miller, "too weak to state as a fact that the subject is Vlach or Aromanian." And we're just getting started.
  • Matoula Tomara-Sideris. n.d. The contribution of Vlach benefactors in the shaping of modern Greece [Per the discussion logic, Tomara-Sideris defines "Vlachs" as Greaco-Vlachs meaning Vlachophone Greeks given her use of Mertzos' Vlachophone Romyosini. But Tomara-Sideris' paper is unpublished and it gives no biographical facts to support its affixing even the label "Greco-Vlach" to Zappas. Conclusion: DUBIOUS SOURCE]
  • Achilleas Stefanou Anthemides. 1998. Οι Βλάχοι της Ελλάδος: η αυτονομιστική κίνηση του πρίγκιπα Διαμάντη, επεμβάσεις της Ρουμανίας και της Ιταλίας στα χρόνια 1860-1994, η εθνική αντίσταση των Ελληνών και οι Ελληνοβλάχοι στα χρόνια 1941-1945, Malliarēs Paideia: "Ο Ευάγγελος Ζάππας Βλάχος στην καταγωγή γεννήθηκε στο Λάμποβο της Νότιας Αλβανίας (Β. Ηπείρου) το 1804 όπου και σήμερα ακόμη ζουν 200.000 βλάχοι." Anthemides gives no clarification for the designation "Vlach" though it is possible he uses it interchangeably with "Greco-Vlachs" (Ελληνοβλάχοι) meaning Vlachophone Greeks. Although Anthemides mentions Zappas' place of birth, he is silent on Zappas' parentage necessary to support affixing the label "Greco-Vlach" to Zappas. Conclusion: DUBIOUS SOURCE]
  • Iōannēs M. Chatzēphōtēs. 2002. Hē kathēmerinē zōē tōn Hellēnōn stēn Tourkokratia: "Από τους Βλάχους αναδείχθηκαν επιφανείς μορφές του Ελληνισμού όπως: [...] Γ. Αβέρωφ Γ. Αρσάκης, Στέργιος Δούμπας, Ευάγγελος και Κων. Ζάππας, Χρ. Ζαλοκώστας, Γεώργιος και Χρηστάκης." Chatzēphōtēs gives no clarification for the designation "Vlach" though it is possible he uses it synomyously with "Greco-Vlachs" (Ελληνοβλάχοι) meaning Vlachophone Greeks. Still, Chatzēphōtēs only lists Zappas as a Vlach and gives no biographical facts to support designating Zappas a Vlach. Conclusion: DUBIOUS SOURCE]
  • Cristian Ștefan Liușnea. 2020. Evanghelie Zappa–un filantrop și un precursor al Jocurilor Olimpice moderne. Teologie și educație la Dunărea de Jos, 18: "S‑a vorbit despre Evanghelie Zappa ca despre un aromân din Epir, care vorbește și albaneza." The paper calls Zappas in its abstract a "Romanian landowner" and in its text "an Aromanian from Epirus", which appears to be an attempt to render the designation "Romanian" as coterminous with "Aromanian". Still, Liușnea gives no biographical facts to support calling Zappas an Aromanian however defined. Conclusion: DUBIOUS SOURCE]
Nope. Kojak Savalas (talk) 20:41, 24 August 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Very well that we're finally approaching a normal discussion. I do not agree entirely with your analysis but before that I'd like to ask you if you could do a similar analysis for the sources supporting his Greek ancestry. The first source, for instance, simply says "E. Zappas, a Greek born in Albania (Ottoman Empire) but living in Romania, founded modern Olympic Games that were held in 1859, 1870, 1875 and 1888." I'm also willing to remove Liușnea from the article because I dislike Romanian authors who claim the Aromanians are Romanians. They're their own thing. Not Greeks either. I also don't quite understand what exactly would you expect a source to say.
As a disclaimer I'm not going to discuss the meaning of the word Vlach. Nope, as you say. We're discussing about Northern Epirus. A Vlach in this context means an Aromanian. If you disagree with that we won't go anywhere. Super Dromaeosaurus (talk) 22:16, 24 August 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
What is this? Bartering? No dice. But I will examine the other sources. Just give me a minute. Kojak Savalas (talk) 22:57, 24 August 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
The other sources (i.e., Decker, Young, Gerlach, Iordachi, Brownell, Hill, Chatziefstathiou and Henry) are all mainstream. Among them are sources that concentrate on Zappas and the modern Olympics (i.e., Young, Hill, Brownell, Chatziefstathiou and Henry). Young is the best because he gives biographical facts about Zappas' parentage to support the assertion that Zappas was a Greek historical figure. The mainstream and specialist sources, in conclusion, meet WP:V. Kojak Savalas (talk) 00:06, 25 August 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Are you serious? You literally only put yourself in evidence. You loved pulling off a long analysis for the sources supporting my claim but I see no such thing for yours. You criticize sources simply stating the Aromanian descent of Zappas but if sources simply state he was a Greek, that's perfect. Yep, all my sources are mainstream, and yours aren't :). Who could've thought?
Compromise is not possible with you. Thanks for confirming it. Super Dromaeosaurus (talk) 01:35, 25 August 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
That was a test and I knew you would react this way. Thank you for confirming that your appeal to negotiation on this talkpage (i.e., source bartering) was just another tactic as I suspected. Now if you want the analysis of the other sources (I'd gladly do it), then apologize for everything you wrote. And I mean everything. Kojak Savalas (talk) 02:58, 25 August 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
I proposed removing Liușnea for reasons I already stated. I can't believe this is your reaction. Incredible. Super Dromaeosaurus (talk) 09:01, 25 August 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Still waiting for that apology. Kojak Savalas (talk) 21:38, 25 August 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Take a seat. Super Dromaeosaurus (talk) 22:27, 25 August 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Pining to "execute" me? Kojak Savalas (talk) 22:35, 25 August 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]