Wikipedia:Simple talk

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation, search


Contents

Prototype for editing Wikidata infoboxes on Wikipedia[change source]

Hello,

I’m sorry for writing in English. It’d be great if someone could translate this message if necessary.

One of the most requested features for Wikidata is to enable editing of Wikidata’s data directly from Wikipedia, so the editors can continue their workflow without switching websites.

The Wikidata development team has been working on a tool to achieve this goal: fill and edit the Wikipedia infoboxes with information from Wikidata, directly on Wikipedia, via the Visual Editor.

We already asked for feedback in 2015, and collected some interesting ideas which we shared with you in this thesis. Now we would like to present to you our first prototype and collect your feedback, in order to improve and continue the development of this feature.

We present this work to you very early, so we can include your feedback before and all along the development. You are the core users of this feature, so we want to make sure that it fits your needs and editing processes.

You will find the prototype, description of the features, and a demo video, on this page. Feel free to add any comment or feedback on the talk page. The page is currently not translated in every languages, but you can add your contribution by helping to translate it.

Unfortunately, I won’t be able to follow all the discussions on Wikipedia, so if you want to be sure that your feedback is read, please add it on the Wikidata page, in your favorite language. Thanks for your understanding.

Thanks, Lea Lacroix (WMDE)

New notification when a page is connected to Wikidata[change source]

Hello all,

(Please help translate to your language)

The Wikidata development team is about to deploy a new feature on all Wikipedias. It is a new type of notification (via Echo, the notification system you see at the top right of your wiki when you are logged in), that will inform the creator of a page, when this page is connected to a Wikidata item.

You may know that Wikidata provides a centralized system for all the interwikilinks. When a new page is created, it should be connected to the corresponding Wikidata item, by modifying this Wikidata item. With this new notification, editors creating pages will be informed when another editor connects this page to Wikidata.

Screenshot Echo Wikibase notification.png

This feature will be deployed on May 30th on all the Wikipedias, excepting English, French and German. This feature will be disable by default for existing editors, and enabled by default for new editors.

This is the first step of the deployments, the Wikipedias and other Wikimedia projects will follow in the next months.

If you have any question, suggestion, please let me know by pinging me. You can also follow and leave a comment on the Phabricator ticket.

Thanks go to Matěj Suchánek who developed this feature!

Thank you! Lea Lacroix (WMDE) (talk)

List of scientist pages dominated by red links[change source]

User:Sju hav and I have been involved in conversation on his talk page about his creation of several "List of (nationality) scientists" articles that contain almost all red links. See List of Bolivian scientists, List of Guatemalan scientists, and List of Fijian scientists for just a few random examples. More can be seen from the list on his user page. Since we don't have a specific guideline with regards to lists on Simple, we default to the English MOS at en:Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style/Lists#Development which states "However, as Wikipedia is optimized for readers over editors, any lists which exist primarily for development or maintenance purposes (such as a list that consists entirely of red links and does not serve an informational purpose; especially a list of missing topics) should be in either the project or user space, not the main space." Sju hav has made it clear that he has no intention to make the articles for the scientists, but, rather, will add commentary about them on the list.

I do not believe we should have lists consisting solely of red links per the guideline. My belief is that these should be moved into user space until they contain mostly subjects with articles on Simple English Wikipedia. Sju hav suggested I try opening deletion discussions on them, but I want to see the community's view on these articles. Only (talk) 17:41, 5 August 2017 (UTC)

Looks like you forgot to tell about the discussion at
Perhaps we should finish that "Keep" or "Not keep" discussion first,
(and if that discussion ends as "Not keep", then it is anyone's guess regarding what chance there might be that I will write a single article, about any scientists, for Simple English Wikipedia).
I am looking forward to contributing to other topics on Simple English Wikipedia,
even if I strongly might disagree with one or two wikipedians about the necessity of these Lists of scientists, by country.
These lists, we should "Not Keep", says two wikipedians (and I say "Keep"):
I didn't "tell about the discussion" at RFD because I opened this discussion hours before the RFD was opened by Auntof6.
As for and if that discussion ends as "Not keep", then it is anyone's guess regarding what chance there might be that I will write a ''single'' article, about any scientists, for Simple English Wikipedia: you're welcome to make that "threat" but it's not going to weigh into the decision as to whether or not the list articles meet guidelines. It's becoming increasingly clear why you are blocked on so many other Wikipedia projects, so I point you to WP:ONESTRIKE. Only (talk) 18:58, 6 August 2017 (UTC)
You forgot to tell here about your vote to Not keep/Delete, at "16:01, 6 August 2017". It is not a big deal.
You forgot to tell about the rest of my "threat": that "I am looking forward to contributing to other topics on Simple English Wikipedia,
even if I strongly might disagree with one or two wikipedians about the necessity of these Lists of scientists, by country."
That in itself might also just be another honest mistake.
My edits on Simple English Wikipedia, speak for themselves.
(As far as being blocked on Swedish for not writing good enough Swedish, then please let me know if I start writing in Swedish on this wikipedia.)
(As far as being blocked on Danish, for another week, for not writing good enough Danish, then please let me know if I start writing in Danish on this wikipedia.)
If you do not have strong arguments (about the List of scientists) on your hand, then I can see why you would want to try to turn attention to disagreements (, not about List of scientists,) that I have had on other wikipedias.
Have a nice day! Sju hav (talk) 19:21, 6 August 2017 (UTC)
Why would I need to come here and tell everyone I voted deleted on the RFD? That's dumb. Only (talk) 19:25, 6 August 2017 (UTC)

If you had linked to the discussion at

then that would not have been "dumb", perhaps.
You and I might consider to agree to disagree.
Unless one or both of us, sees a need to Flog a dead horse. Sju hav (talk) 19:37, 6 August 2017 (UTC)

  • Perhaps one should keep the lists only, until the category:Scientists from that-nation has at least 3 articles (, each regarding a separate scientist). Sju hav (talk) 15:27, 16 August 2017 (UTC)

Comment - Looking over the wiki-English articles of the scientists that were on the list (at the start of the article) - from South Korea - then only one seemed relatively notable.
Many of the "red link scientist" might not seem notable, if one tried to describe those scientists, in "my table".
The current List of South Korean scientists, has 2 "red link scientists" and zero blue.
I think that is okay for now,
but I respect the opinions of those who might say that on a small Wikipedia, articles have to have 99 blue links and zero red links. Sju hav (talk) 14:50, 4 September 2017 (UTC)

A possible option on the side:[change source]

Can wikipedia decide that a category should be a "soft category", and that one particular "category:Persons in this-occupation from that-country" can be created even if there is only one article in "category:Persons in this-occupation from that-country".
From my country, the arguably most famous mathematician is missing; I did not notice that until I created the category mathematicians from my country.
If I had seen that my country's most famous scientist (and not necessarily a mathematician) was not in a category with only one article, then I likely would have been tempted to create that article. Sju hav (talk) 14:57, 16 August 2017 (UTC)

Suggestion: "Blue links scientists" first. "Red link scientists" in the next section[change source]

Please look at the following version of List of Indian scientists.
Is that version wikified, to a bare minimum?
I prefer that we do not take "red link scientists", and change the presentation, so that the names become "black ink scientists".
It has some value, that sometimes our lists are better than those at wiki-English.
For the record: I am indirectly asking about most of (or all) the articles, within Category:Lists of scientists. Sju hav (talk) 13:56, 30 August 2017 (UTC)

If the List of Indian scientists is good enough, then I expect to change all "my" Lists of scientists,
so those fall into line. Sju hav (talk) 14:49, 30 August 2017 (UTC)

No, please don't separate list items based on whether the articles exist. --Auntof6 (talk) 16:16, 30 August 2017 (UTC)

Please look at this last version of List of Indian scientists.
You probably will not like that version either.
However, I do recognize that there arguably are few rewards (for others) to "turn a red-link scientist, into a blue-link scientist".
Note: Regarding this topic, on another thread one has started using the phrase "resorting to ...". It is arguably not a good phrase to use in this discussion (although I do not doubt that some persons, can get a very good feeling, when they use that phrase in any discussion). Sju hav (talk) 17:31, 30 August 2017 (UTC)
Perhaps these articles should be moved to the author's userspace until they are ready for mainspace. Jim.henderson (talk) 17:43, 30 August 2017 (UTC)
It has six "blue links scientists". It is in main space already, and it belongs there.
There arguably is some discussion about what entails a miniumum amount of wikification. (And I am being bold enough to act on, that there arguably is a likelihood, for there being advantages of having the blue links at the top of an article (perhaps to motivate someone to write articles in the scientist category, because arguably little else seems to work.)

Suggestion: "Blue links scientists" first (and in a table). "Red link scientists" are not in the table[change source]

With this suggestion [1], there might be an insentive (or reward) for writing an article:
When someone writes an article, "their" scientist gets promoted from the "red link" (and not in the table), and into the table.
And "their scientist" gets their photo in the article (because that scientist is in the table). Sju hav (talk) 19:08, 30 August 2017 (UTC)

As user:Auntof6 said above, lists should not be separated into blue and red links. This would include tables.--Tbennert (talk) 15:49, 31 August 2017 (UTC)

Alternative: having a table (mixing blue-links and "red-link scientists")[change source]

I am not saying that all "Lists of scientists from ...",
should be a table.
The following List, has an OK appeance: List of Afghan scientists.
The List can be sorted.
I think that this type of list will be fine (whenever somebody is willing to go the extra mile).
(I am not sure what is the exact alphabetical order, for Afghan names.) Sju hav (talk) 12:18, 31 August 2017 (UTC)

I like the table. It is easier to read and has the sorting function.--Tbennert (talk) 15:54, 31 August 2017 (UTC)
Tables are fine, but the people should be listed in alphabetical order. Entries should not be treated differently based on whether they are redlinked or bluelinked. --Auntof6 (talk) 16:40, 31 August 2017 (UTC)

Yes or no to List of Scientist - as a table - even if only two "red link scientists" with "texted notability" and references[change source]

I am hereby making a suggestion for something to become policy. (And am I in the correct thread for making such a suggestion?)
Let us look at an example: List of ecologists, is a maybe an important topic. And maybe someone wants to start that "maybe important" article.
What main rule should there be for the most important topics: My suggestion for a main rule:
"A table can be started (and) kept, even if it only consists of two "red link scientists",
with text that shows that all of them are noted (or notable),
and with references (that tells about what the wiki-text says),
and the references are notable sources (or with a good reputation).
And if someone starts an important List, that is not a table, then we are not sure what rules apply to those Lists"
(because in a table, one has to be straight to the point about why the scientist might be noted. In a table it is not possible to go on and on with a long "Resumé" of non-notable stuff).

Please give me two of the more notable names from the List at English-wiki,
but not any of the following (because we can try to pretend that "Simple"
does not have articles about

  • Murray Bookchin
  • Rachel Carson
  • Barry Commoner
  • Ilkka Hanski (Finland)
  • Richard Levins
  • Elsie Quarterman
  • Edward Osborne Wilson )

Note that I am not saying that "Simple" should have "Lists of ecologists from ....".
I am saying (in part) that if someone starts tables about "Lists of scientists from ...",
then we should recognize that such pages (arguably) are easier to monitor (for only one or two notable claims),
rather than Lists that are not a table. Sju hav (talk) 14:12, 2 September 2017 (UTC)

Example of the smallest List of scientists from ... (that maybe should be kept)[change source]

Name Field Known for Most noted award/fellowship Year of death Country Picture
"An ecologist named Pierre ..." - Known for .... Most noted award/fellowship - - Pierre Dansereau.jpg
"An ecologist named ... Ramensky ..." Known for .... Most noted award/fellowship Ramensky-Leonty 1884-1953.jpg


Sju hav (talk) 14:12, 2 September 2017 (UTC)

  • I have decided this RFD: Lists of scientits by nationality can be kept if the resp. list contains at least 4 blue links to scientits; for the others, there are a few "super-lists", (eg. African Scientits (by country)?)) which ofc also need at least 4 blue links to be kept. This seems to keep the relevant info, and avoid short lists of mostly-red-linked entries. If a list by nationailty contains 4 blue entries to scientists, it can again be moved to a separate page. --Eptalon (talk) 14:19, 10 September 2017 (UTC)

When a reference (from a newspaper) has a non-free link[change source]

Hi,

In one article, I am using a newspaper as a reference. The newspaper also has a link to the article, but one can not get to the article, without paying.

Does Simple-wiki have a way that one can write a reference, so that the reader knows that the link, does not take one to the article, if one does not pay, or if one does not have a non-free subscription?

If the answer is no, then please look at the following link [2], and perhaps tell me if that reference is good enough, or almost good enough. Thanks. 90.149.60.57 (talk) 14:00, 28 August 2017 (UTC)

A good question, sorry for the delay in answering. We have a template to use in these situations, see Template:Subscription for how to use it.--Peterdownunder (talk) 22:03, 9 September 2017 (UTC)

A new category and The path of least moaning[change source]

If I find three articles that belong to a category, that has not been made yet:

What is the worst approach of the following two suggestions:

  • Choice One: One makes a red-link category, and puts the three articles in that category. Or
  • Choice Two: One makes a category, and one puts it as a sub-category of only one category. An example of this is:

One finds three municipalites in Norway. Thereafter one creates a category that is a sub-category of Norway.

  • Choice Three: Or Simple wikipedia, can create a page, wp:Norway.

On that page one can write, "I have found 3 Norwegian municipalities", and the names of those are Sør-Varanger, Kristiansand, and Lom, Norway.
Choice One and Choice Two are frowned at. Choice Three was found to be a good enough choice (in this discussion). Sju hav (talk) 17:35, 28 August 2017 (UTC)

I'm not sure I understand everything you're saying, but here is some general info:
  • If you find three pages that belong in a category that has not been made yet, first be sure it is a category that would fit here at Simple. We don't use the same categories as enwiki. Sometimes that is because we keep the category structure simpler, and sometimes it's because we decided we don't want certain categories. Categories for things like municipalities should be fine.
  • When creating a category, be sure there are at least three pages ready to go into it right away. Then create the category and put the pages in it. It doesn't matter in which order you do those two things, as long as you do them within a short time. Note that I said "pages", not "articles". The pages in a category can be articles, templates, or other categories: those all count toward the three-page requirement.
  • Any category created should itself be categorized appropriately. Most categories go into at least two other categories, but it depends.
  • Please avoid adding categories to pages without creating the category. Such redlinked categories will probably be removed
I hope that helps. --Auntof6 (talk) 20:23, 28 August 2017 (UTC)
I am now going to try to create one category, Simply, as I have outlined above.
If two admins become sure, that my practical example (to come), has not been helpful in itself, then that will be good information. (And then I and others will know if one should not bother being helpful (at such a low-end) when one discovers a new category, with enough articles (or pages). Sju hav (talk) 12:19, 29 August 2017 (UTC)
Here is the new category [3].
I hope it is found, to be helpful.
(If not, a Simple option that might be more appealing, is to mention the potential for new categories, on talk pages such as at Category:Municipalities.) Sju hav (talk) 12:32, 29 August 2017 (UTC)
That category looked fine. It just needed to be in one more category, which I added. Usually, a category needs to be in more than one category itself. In this case, it needed to be in a category for Norway and a category for municipalities. --Auntof6 (talk) 16:03, 29 August 2017 (UTC)
Do we usually have [[Category:Municipalities of xxx]] within [[Category:xxx]] or within [[Category:Geography of xxx]]? StevenJ81 (talk) 18:29, 29 August 2017 (UTC)
If you want to know where it usually is, you could look at each one to see where it's placed. As far as where it should be, I prefer to have only physical geography in the geography categories, and not political geography: that is contrary to the way Commons and other Wikipedias do it, but it seems simpler to me that way, and the political geography stuff (which includes settlements, among other things) doesn't get buried under more category levels. --Auntof6 (talk) 19:07, 29 August 2017 (UTC)
I don't feel strongly about it, and you are the wiki's acknowledged leader on category issues. I just assumed that this should be handled consistently with the way others are handled; if this way, fine, if the other way, fine. StevenJ81 (talk) 20:51, 29 August 2017 (UTC)

Help from any .js experts[change source]

Hi. Can anyone help me figure out why my global scripts page is (usually) not working here? It works routinely everywhere else. Thanks. StevenJ81 (talk) 16:00, 1 September 2017 (UTC)

Newsletter delivery to user talk pages of indeffed users[change source]

We have at least one indeffed user who has newsletters (for example, Tech News) delivered to their talk page here. In the case I just looked at, the user signed up for at least one such delivery after they were indeffed here.

Should this delivery be allowed? I see the following issues:

  • Having newsletters added to the talk page eventually pushes other things off the page if the page is automatically archived. That makes it harder for admins to research things when an indeffed user asks to be unblocked.
  • If the user did something bad enough to be indeffed, should they be allowed to continue using their talk page here in this way?

Thoughts? --Auntof6 (talk) 08:06, 2 September 2017 (UTC)

Over at English-wiki the user talk page of a blocked user, and of an indeffed user, can not be used for anything except trying to make an application for unblocking. If this wiki does not have other specific rules, I would think that an admin would rightfully be able to cancel the subscription. Sju hav (talk) 19:13, 2 September 2017 (UTC)
I often unsubscribe them once they have been indeffed for a year. But I don't really do it before then. That being said signing up after they were indeffed is just being disruptive and I would probably consider locking the page. -DJSasso (talk) 11:12, 6 September 2017 (UTC)
Yeah. I'm inclined to think that signing up after being indeffed is one thing; I'm inclined to agree with DJSasso with respect to an already-existing subscription. StevenJ81 (talk) 15:05, 6 September 2017 (UTC)
  • How long should the page be locked for, after the first instance? 1 month, 3 months or ... ?
To lock the page permanently, should one be "infinitely" sure of evil intent?
Is it plausible that someone could become blocked, and then one has come across a newsletter of interest, and then subscribe to that, possibly without ill intent? Sju hav (talk) 14:14, 7 September 2017 (UTC)
We generally lock talk pages of blocked users for the length of their block if they use their page for anything other than requesting unblock. You aren't allowed to use your talk page for anything other than unblock requests once you are blocked. -DJSasso (talk) 14:48, 7 September 2017 (UTC)

Science, one country (at a time), and scientists[change source]

After that, can I then add a section that is a table: a list of scientists and what makes each of those notable,
and after that redirect List of South Korean scientists, to the "Science and technology in ..." article?
This might also be a consideration in regard to articles about other countries and their scientists. Sju hav (talk) 14:19, 4 September 2017 (UTC)
Of course, in such an article one generally would not write about what Korean scientists have achieved while working in other countries. Sju hav (talk) 14:22, 4 September 2017 (UTC)

Stand-alone scientists: Simple guidelines for Simple-wiki[change source]

I have seen versions of "stand-alone scientist" articles on "a larger wikipedia",

that unlikely would survive a deletion discussion - without the article being improved.

I have a suggestion for a guideline, for articles about individual scientists: [4]. Sju hav (talk) 14:22, 7 September 2017 (UTC)

Thanks, but we already have Wikipedia:Notability (people), which serves us well. --Auntof6 (talk) 17:48, 7 September 2017 (UTC)

Block request[change source]

Resolved.

Hi, Could someone please block 2606:a000:f0ca:da00:582d:d272:5bea:4626 - I've reported at AIV but AIV seems deserted so figured I'd try here, They're also a sock of This is the future, Thanks, –Davey2010Talk 14:55, 7 September 2017 (UTC)

Thanks Djsasso!, Apologies for this being in the wrong place but as the vandalism wasn't going to stop I had to ask somewhere, Anyway thanks again! :), –Davey2010Talk 15:00, 7 September 2017 (UTC)

Suggestions for classwork?[change source]

Hello editors of Simple English Wikipedia,

I have the opportunity to teach a linguistics class about Simple English Wikipedia. I will also give them a small homework assignment. I was considering having them translate a page from English Wikipedia to Simple English Wikipedia, but I'm worried that it will be too challenging to people who have never edited Wikipedia before. Have college students had successful projects on Simple English Wikipedia before? What would you recommend? Much thanks. Rachel Helps (BYU) (talk) 21:42, 7 September 2017 (UTC)

We have had many successful projects with schools and colleges over the years. Some have been very basic - an English primary school researched penguins, and wrote about them in emails to me. I formatted their work onto the pages. We have had students learning English create articles about a range of topics - Korean food, female writers, female scientists, etc. As your students are linguistic students, then a Simple English translation could be a great project. Writing simply is no simple task. We have resources on our schools gateway page. Other editors are usually happy to assist. To see the best we have, try comparing our good articles with their English Wikipedia equivalent. It can also lead to an interesting discussion on what is simple English - how do you know, can it measured, etc. As a less demanding project, adding a reference or a citation to existing articles is also valuable; or locating images on Wikimedia and adding them is always helpful. --Peterdownunder (talk) 06:02, 8 September 2017 (UTC)
thank you for the suggestions! I think I'll prepare a list of pages for them to translate sections from English Wikipedia, so they won't have to worry about page creation. Rachel Helps (BYU) (talk) 15:08, 11 September 2017 (UTC)
I have another question. Maybe Peterdownunder can help? There will be 16 students who want to make new accounts. Do I need to get an account creator right on Simple Wikipedia, or is it possible for a single IP to add more than 6 accounts in a day? I could also ask an enwiki for the account creator right. Rachel Helps (BYU) (talk) 20:14, 14 September 2017 (UTC)
An administrator here can create the accounts for you if needed.--Peterdownunder (talk) 22:05, 14 September 2017 (UTC)

Categories, and a minority(?) of Russians, that are Asians[change source]

Are there many other categories of Russians, that have been lumped into the category "Asians", such as on this page [5]?

Many Russians have never been to Asia, including many from St. Petersburg (on Russia's Western border, more or less).

One possible solution: The category belongs to "... from the Eurasian continent".

One solution is to have these three categories "on the same level"

  • Russian scientists
  • European scientists (with sub-category "...from Russia's (European) provinces ...")
  • Asia scientists (with sub-category "...from Russia's (European) provinces ...")

Sju hav (talk) 18:49, 9 September 2017 (UTC)

Like several other countries (see Category:Bicontinental countries for more examples), Russia is partly in Europe and partly in Asia. The convention that the Wikimedia projects have decided on is to categorize such countries and their subcats under both continents. Your suggestion would not be appropriate because it puts a country at the same level as continents. We could discuss subdividing individual Russia subcats by region (Asia vs. Europe), but such subdivision would not be at the same level as the continents. --Auntof6 (talk) 19:00, 9 September 2017 (UTC)
I have never seen "Russian ..." categorized as an "Asian ..." on English-wiki.
Perhaps someone at Russian-wikipedia have good suggestions - about how they deal with "the problem"? In particular I am interested in the categorizing of Russian scientists for now. Sju hav (talk) 19:49, 9 September 2017 (UTC)
Take a look at en:Category:Russia, en:Category:Buildings and structures in Russia and en:Category:Russian people. Those are each in both Asia and Europe categories. There are others, but I'm not going to list them all. --Auntof6 (talk) 20:02, 9 September 2017 (UTC)
At English-wiki, the category is under "European people by nationality" and "Asian people by nationality".
That is perhaps not far from how our related categories are organized. Sju hav (talk) 13:03, 10 September 2017 (UTC)
Russia always wanted to be seen as an European country; 85 percent the Russian people live in the 25% of Russia that is in Europe. Note also, that the border between Europe and Asia is not well-defined. Jekaterinburg is about 40km form the imaginary border between Europe and Asia, in the Asian part of Russia. With roughly 1.3 million people, it is the second-biggest city in the Asian part of Russia (after Novosibirsk, with 1.5 million). Compare Moscow: 12.5 million people in the city proper, and St. Petersburg, with 5 million people in the city proper. Pyotr Ilyich Tchaikovsky and Ivan Pavlov are two famous Russians, both are from the European part. Look at it differently if there were any notable scientists from the Mariana Islands, which are divided into the US territories Northern Mariana Islands and Guam, would it be important to know that they were from there, or would you simply label them "US scientists"?- how many Russian scientits/composers do you know that worked predominantly in the 75% of the country that are in Asia? - In that context, is it important to make the distinction between European Russians, and Asian Russians? --Eptalon (talk) 13:45, 10 September 2017 (UTC)
I agree.
And (surprisingly) seeing that English-wiki are not doing things much differently then we are doing now,
then I do not have any specific ideas for change. Sju hav (talk) 19:37, 10 September 2017 (UTC)

Keeping important categories, even when they are reduced from 3 items, down to 2[change source]

It is my claim that there English-wiki has several countries with only one scientist in its category. I.e. ""Bosnian and Herzegovina scientists.
I think that categories of "Scientists from ...",
should not be deleted, even when a category goes from 3 items,
down to 2 items.
(I am not aware of anyone who is significantly motivated to write one or three articles, mostly to create or keep a category.) Sju hav (talk) 19:32, 10 September 2017 (UTC)
Why should we make exception to our category guidelines for these articles? You said we should but haven't explained WHY we should. Only (talk) 19:47, 10 September 2017 (UTC)
Can one rule out that English-wiki is doing things smarter than we are, on the point I mentioned?
I am sure that there are arguments for not making any changes.
I am hereby asking, What are the best arguments for "keeping important categories that go from 3 items, down to 2"?
@Only: I am sorry if what I have outlined for now, is by one or some, considered to be insufficient. (My questions and comments stand as they are, for now. Your good faith question (or concern) will quite possibly be answered sometime during the discussion.)
(And for your information, at least one person still thinks that there is a difference between "asking"
  • "... WHY ..."
  • and what you did not "ask": "... why ...".
  • Please invite me to your user page, if you DO NOT SEE ANY DIFFERENCE do not see any major difference). Sju hav (talk) 13:45, 11 September 2017 (UTC)
  • I do not see any reason these scientist categories should be any different than any other occupation category, nor did you provide a reason why they would be different. To my point Vjekoslav Bevanda is in the general Category:Bosnia and Herzegovina people, even though he is the current prime minister. Leaders of an entire country are still grouped in the general category until there are three members. As to no one being motivated to create articles, I often help in that way as do others, but right now I am exhausted from these endless discussions. --Tbennert (talk) 14:43, 11 September 2017 (UTC)
  • 'What are the best arguments for "keeping important categories that go from 3 items, down to 2"?' - that is the wrong question to ask. If a category can go below 3 members, then it is not considered "important" enough to justify an exception to the rules. Also, you are being unfair - why are 'categories of "Scientists from ..."' so special, and need special treatment ('should not be deleted'), as you propose? Chenzw  Talk  15:01, 11 September 2017 (UTC)
You might feel (or claim knowledge or certainty) that it is "the wrong question".
The question still stands (while I am not doubting that one can muster a list of persons that say it is "the wrong question"/"the WRONG question").
Thank you for your view. Sju hav (talk) 15:13, 11 September 2017 (UTC)

Draft strategy direction. Version #2[change source]

In 2017, we initiated a broad discussion to form a strategic direction that will unite and inspire Wikimedians. This direction will be the foundation on which we will build clear plans and set priorities. More than 80 communities and groups discussed and gave feedback[strategy 1][strategy 2][strategy 3]. We researched readers and consulted more than 150 experts[strategy 4]. We looked at future trends that will affect our mission, and gathered feedback from partners and donors.

A group of community volunteers and representatives from the strategy team synthesized this feedback into an early version of the strategic direction that the broader movement can review and discuss.

The second version of the direction is ready. Again, please read, share, and discuss on the talk page on Meta. Based on your feedback, the drafting group will refine and finalize the direction.

  1. Cycle 1 synthesis report
  2. Cycle 2 synthesis report
  3. Cycle 3 synthesis report
  4. New Voices synthesis report

SGrabarczuk (WMF) (talk) 11:14, 11 September 2017 (UTC)

Problem page: List of Scientists from the Middle East...[change source]

Hello there, I recently decided, that we did not need lists of Scientists which could not come up with at least 4 blue links to scientists. In that case, I suggested that those lists of scientis which had fewer than 4 entries, or which did not have at least 4 blue ones should be regrouped. One of the regrouped page is List of scientists from the Middle East, which coveres middle-eastern scientits. The currently only blue link is to Al kindi, which nwas a Medieval scientits (died in the 9th or 10th century BC). I wold appreciate if people could help creating stubs on the page, or propose other scientits from these countries, which ideally already have a page here.--Eptalon (talk) 12:37, 13 September 2017 (UTC)

That is one of a few problems. Libya for example isn't in the middle east. I am not sure what the obsession with these list articles are when we don't really even have articles for the scientists. Time would be better spent creating those articles instead of worrying about lists at this point. Once there is a decently large amount of articles then maybe worrying about lists for them. Seems like so much time has been wasted on these when we don't really have the articles to support them at this point. -DJSasso (talk) 15:09, 13 September 2017 (UTC)
I plan to remove Libya.
Perhaps I included Libya because of the following text from English-wiki,
"The first official use of the term "Middle East" by the United States government was in the 1957 Eisenhower Doctrine, which pertained to the Suez Crisis. Secretary of State John Foster Dulles defined the Middle East as "the area lying between and including Libya on the west and Pakistan on the east". Sju hav (talk) 17:52, 13 September 2017 (UTC)
@DJSasso - In the deletion discussions, regarding the Lists - someone (not I) said something like that it is better to have a good, short description about a notable person, than nothing. Because it is better to search and find something acceptable, than nothing.
I will try to find the quote, after there is a conclusion about the ban proposal, regarding me.
There are many ways to contribute to wikipedia - I am considering writing a stub or two about Science and technology from .... Sju hav (talk) 18:10, 13 September 2017 (UTC)
┌─────────────────────────────────┘
I think we should focus on content here. I am in no position to say who is a scientists from the Middle East, and who isn't. All I say is that given the listing, we need to come up with 4 blue links to scientists. What I also say: Two countries have their own lists, so re-adding scientits from those countries does not really help...--Eptalon (talk) 19:20, 13 September 2017 (UTC)
Right, and those short descriptions can be stub articles. -DJSasso (talk) 01:20, 14 September 2017 (UTC)
I am the one who said searching for a name and at least finding some description is better than nothing, in regards to the all red-link lists. At this point the lists are kept. Something is better than nothing, but an article is best of all. Honestly with the time it takes to find the information to add the short description, a stub could be created. Then a quick description could be added to the list. --Tbennert (talk) 15:16, 14 September 2017 (UTC)

Community ban proposal for Sju hav[change source]

Dear all,

I am bringing the following editor to the community's attention:

Looking though his edits made within the past month or so, I present the following evidence that casts strong doubt on the editor's suitability to continue contributing to this wiki:

It is my view that this editor currently constitutes a net negative to the project, and that we should not be wasting unnecessary editorial resources towards dealing with whatever he throws us on a daily basis. I am pursuing this matter via the traditional community ban process, rather than using WP:ONESTRIKE, for I would like any possible block applied on him to have explicit community approval, and not based on, as some might say, a single administrator's "arbitrary" judgement. Hypothetically speaking, if said editor's block on EN was overturned, the fact that this is a community-endorsed block (a ban) means that an unblock request on this wiki definitely must do more than simply stating that the block has been overturned on EN (and thus, grounds for overturning a WP:ONESTRIKE block). Also, the offence committed on EN appears to be sockpuppetry, of which I am not aware of any evidence suggesting that it is happening on this wiki.


Thank you for your time. --Chenzw  Talk  16:24, 13 September 2017 (UTC)

Give editors a few chances, and some good advice — but if these don't lead to reasonably competent editing within a reasonable timeframe, it's best to wash your hands of the situation. Not every person belongs at Wikipedia, because some people are not competent enough.

WP:CIR


You seem to trying to paint a picture, that I am using Simple-wiki to present some problem at one other Wikipedia. That is inaccurate.
However, I do see a challenge in having a Simple-wiki admin making generalized claims about my edits at Simple-wiki, without diffs, because he is making the claim on another wikipedia (English-wiki).
His claim was made around 12 August. (That view was presented on English-wiki, without diffs to substantiate his misgivings.)
I also do not think it was fortunate for the admin to also refer to a (then) ongoing discussion about List of scientists, and "red links". (The conclusion of the deletion discussion about the Lists, did not paint me as a villain, unlike the admin using my unblock request, to push his view about an ongoing deletion discussion (and tarring me, arguably as conveniently as he could.)
I was involved in one discussion, in part about "ownership" of a finished school project. Diffs [6].
I left that topic alone after administrators disagreed with my edits. I can not see that an edit war has ensued there. But one can argue that I should have left that discussion quicker.
@Jimbo Wales: has been asked with my permission by an IP previously, if he thinks I should be banned permanently from English-wiki. He did let the request stand on his talk page, unanswered, until the post was archived after (I think) about half a week.
My user page, does not have the exact material, from one deleted talk page - a project page of mine. (And one of the arguments for deleting the page was, more or less, saving storage space on Wikipedia's servers.) I will take a look at that part of the user page now, to see if I can/should remove the material, without having that interpreted as some measure of guilt. Sju hav (talk) 17:18, 13 September 2017 (UTC)
I have now removed a part of my user page, and here is the diff [7].
Please feel free to quote from the original post, in regard to any portion of the post that one feels I have not answered - or not answered enough. Sju hav (talk) 17:38, 13 September 2017 (UTC)
  • Support To be honest I was pretty close to doing a one strike anyway. I had decided to give it a couple of days to make sure it was a good decision before pulling the trigger. Seeing Chenzw well thought out proposal I can't help but support since I was likely going to do it anyway. I have seen nothing but trouble from this editor since they came here. He is clearly a net negative to this wiki. -DJSasso (talk) 17:54, 13 September 2017 (UTC)
  • Reject- I will be blunt from the word "go". In Danish (my first language), there is a saying - "Der er ugler i mosen" - "There are owls in the bog." We use it when something looks or feels wrong, or we have an inkling that something's not quite right. That's how I feel right now. What happened to your use of community process? Blocks? Oh look, the logs say they've never been used here. What I have seen of Sju hav, gives me the impression that they're trying to do their best, while wrangling with problems elsewhere and finding it difficult to wade through the bog of community process. The rules governing Wikipedia are not easy to learn and even harder to get your head round, even I am having trouble understanding them. Everyone deserves more than one chance. As you say in English - "Nobody's perfect". Probably not even you :) May I suggest before accusing others of violating community process, you go through all the steps leading up to where you are now. DaneGeld (talk) 18:21, 13 September 2017 (UTC)
    • The reason we're having this conversation about ban even though there is no block in the log is because we have two options here: 1. we ban him per this community discussion or 2. an admin institutes an indefinite WP:ONESTRIKE block. If he is blocked, he's not getting a short block. He's getting an indefinite block. Based on the comments of other admins on here, it basically boils down to "we think he needs to be blocked; should it be with community consensus or with the action of a single admin?" Only (talk) 20:13, 13 September 2017 (UTC)
      • @Only: My concern with the block that is being proposed now, is that no short term measures have been implemented against this user at all at this Wikipedia. If you have had problems with his editing, why have shorter term blocks not been attempted earlier in the situation? In my eyes, this is essentially going from 0 to 60 without taking your foot off the accelerator. If he should be blocked, it should be done the right way in the right order - it's obvious that his edits are not all vandalism, he's doing what he can and getting dogpiled for his efforts. Not cool. Sorry. DaneGeld (talk) 22:09, 13 September 2017 (UTC)
        • The entire purpose of the WP:ONESTRIKE policy at this wiki is so that we don't waste time on those sorts of measures for someone who has already proven on another wiki to not have them work. You may be unaware of the history of this wiki. We were used as a dumping ground for bad editors from other wikis. They were told to come here and proove you are better. It caused no end of trouble here, wreaked havoc on this wiki and sucked all the time out of our editors and admins trying to keep the circus in check. In the end we had to institute these measures to keep the wiki from having to be shut down. His chances occurred on the other wiki he is blocked on. He doesn't get fresh chances just by coming here. Only one. -DJSasso (talk) 01:10, 14 September 2017 (UTC)
  • Support - With edits like this, this, this, this as well as the pointless sub page creation indicate there's a clear WP:CIR issue here, The Jimbo edits (and edit summaries with them) are enough for me to support a ban here. –Davey2010Talk 19:02, 13 September 2017 (UTC)
Using the "Competence is required" argument really is an own goal. Not everyone meets the standards of others, and not everyone can or will - see Dunning-Kruger effect, which quotes "the tendency for incompetent people to be unaware of their incompetence—and for highly skilled people to believe that people capable of their achievements are more numerous than they really are." - PLUS, that's an essay which only contains opinions, and has not gained community consensus. Do we really bin people based only on someone's opinions? DaneGeld (talk) 19:13, 13 September 2017 (UTC)
It may well be an essay however it's still a widely used essay and is something anyone and everyone can be blocked per, IMHO It's about meeting the expected standards here - Ofcourse it being Simple English people here may have various issues and I respect that but we still need to have expected standards of editors, Just 'cos it's Simple English it doesn't mean you get to wreck havoc and not face the consequences. –Davey2010Talk 20:53, 13 September 2017 (UTC)

Comment - Can contributions at Wikidata, in part, sort of act as a character witness?
My contributions at the Wikidata part of the Wiki-project.
--Sju hav (talk) 19:36, 13 September 2017 (UTC)

  • Comment: Sju hav claims that I presented evidence at his English Wikipedia unblock statement without diffs (he says this twice above); anyone can take a look at my comment there and see that his claim here is false. Only (talk) 20:13, 13 September 2017 (UTC)
Your claim about contentious edits, arguably are not covered by your diffs. (But having a roll call of five or fifty persons to say that you are right, is doable; I am not arguing with that.)
A main point of mine is this: You were so dissatisfied with my edits (at that point in August), that you had recommended, zero times, that I be blocked.
Now you have had your say, I have had my say? Sju hav (talk) 11:37, 14 September 2017 (UTC)
now you're moving the goal posts: "he didn't provide diffs" is now "he did but I don't think they're sufficient". If my argument at the unblock discussion was so weak and so questionable, why wouldn't the reviewing admin have ignored it? Clearly there's merit to what I said and the evidence I provided.
And for the record I fully support a community ban on Sju hav. Only (talk) 11:56, 14 September 2017 (UTC)
Your claim about contentious edits, arguably are not covered by your diffs. (But having a roll call ... is doable; I am not arguing with that.)
I am trying to show the full picture: You were so dissatisfied with my edits (at that point in August), that you had recommended, zero times, that I be blocked.
You are trying to focus on a small part of the (whole) picture, with your arguably inaccurate (or untrue) talk about moving goal posts.
But in August you had not proposed a ban, and complained about my edits in general (on another website while showing ), without providing diffs of any of the most problematic general edits in mainspace. (The supposed problems of those edits, were arguably around half of your case against me. That part was only based on your opinion, without diffs to support.) Sju hav (talk) 14:27, 14 September 2017 (UTC)
On 15 September, I, user:sju hav, have come to accept that user:Only has in Good Faith, made statements against my "simple-wiki edits".
Where there is smoke, there is fire!
I have now come to accept that user:Only's description of things, must have been accurate.
If I have done any damage to the good reputation of user:Only, then I am very sorry about that. Sju hav (talk) 19:09, 15 September 2017 (UTC)
  • Comment Other than re-arranging articles into Lists, i haven't seen Sju hav do much content work (as in: creating articles/stubs that do not exist yet, or simplifying articles). What I have also seen is the editor may have problems assessing who is notable (a publication in a medical journal, such as The Lancet clearly makes someone in the field of Medicine notable). Anyway: the editor should focus on content work; this is a small wiki, and endless discussions are not helpful, especially if they clearly go against the opion of the majority. When i closed the RFD about the lists of Scientits by country, I tried to save as much info as possible, which means we now have 4 new Lists, whith ideally 4 blue links to scientists, but still many red-linked ones. What we now need is to get (at least stub) artzicles for all those red-linked scientists (if that is what the editor is interested in); In short: I am against a community ban if I see the editor do meaningful work on content. --Eptalon (talk) 08:50, 14 September 2017 (UTC)
I have made this list of some articles (that I wrote,) that have not taken much heat, yet.
Not doing much content work?
Well, I got interested in the subject regarding scientists, in part, because the argubaly most famous dead scientist in my country, does not have an aticle. Some/many/most of the scientists from my country, and on simple-wiki, seem to be "phone book entries, without notability shown".
I have found the same problem with some articles on En-wiki (during the past month).
I recommended one article about a scientist (not from my country), to be deleted. It was deleted.
In my latest lists, I have largely been successful in capturing a "core of notability". (Please take any name, of any red-link that I have added in the last two days, and dare me to make a stub, "by adding year of birth or place of birth or death". My point is that I have researched and found and added to Lists, significant portions of "core notabitity".) Sju hav (talk) 11:23, 14 September 2017 (UTC)
We are few editors on this wiki, even fewer create articles on science-related topics; your help creating stubs on scientists or science-related subjects which you then extend would be greatly appreciated. --Eptalon (talk) 11:43, 14 September 2017 (UTC)
This link [8] deals with one stub (or sub-stub) that I have made today. If it is of any use for wikipedia - fine!
Comment - I was banned from Danish for one month, for not writing good enough Danish, in all edits. That ban ended 4-5 months ago. (Note: I have no schooling in Danish or Swedish, so I have no plans to create new stubs or articles at Danish.)
I have been banned from Swedish, for not writing good enough Swedish.
One year ago, I was banned at Norwegian (and not for sockpuppetry). My talk page is there, for all to see.
Those who have been blocked for sockpuppetry at English-wiki, can apply for unblock after six months of no "puppeteering". (And now 8 months have passed.)
At wikidata I have never seen any complaints, against my edits. Sju hav (talk) 15:04, 14 September 2017 (UTC)
  • Support Completely side with net negative. I do agree with User:DaneGeld that a shorter block would be good, but I also understand the WP:ONESTRIKE reasoning, so I would support either. The amount of time reading and considering these discussions is significant, which wouldn't be an issue if the discussions were advancing this wiki, and I don't think they are. There is also the number of discussions started, adding to the time drain.--Tbennert (talk) 15:43, 14 September 2017 (UTC)
Please link to the 3 discussions that you find the most frivolous (or negative, in that they can not forward wikipedia).
One deletion discussion was long, but resulted in a decision, that List articles must have 4 blue links. And for now there is no cap on red-links (when notability is shown).
The decision was quite important, in my view. Sju hav (talk) 16:14, 14 September 2017 (UTC)
Why does one need to link you to 3 discussions specifically? In either case, here they are: 1, 2, and 3. Your style of participating in discussions is so hard to follow that I am unable to give specific diff links. For the third link, I want to put it on the record here that I consider that discussion to contain a huge amount of rhetoric that is counterproductive to the consensus-building process (as @StevenJ81: put it, "wikilawyering") and also wish to point out the serious error in logical reasoning:
This is a case of denying the antecedent, which is a logical fallacy. --Chenzw  Talk  17:23, 14 September 2017 (UTC)
Regarding "your example" 3: I feel that you are somewhat close to trying to put blame on me for: Wikipedia did not have clear guidelines about how many "blue-link scientists-or-other-type-workers" have to be in a List-article - and no clarity on if there should be a cap on red-link-scientists etc. when shown to be notable.
In hindsight, perhaps I could have put one or two of the other of "your examples", on my user talk page - instead of at Simple Talk;
perhaps that might have made some difference to you. (That is not a question - I am not trying to prolong this proceeding.) Sju hav (talk) 18:52, 14 September 2017 (UTC)
I am talking about your error in logical reasoning, and not blaming you for unclear guidelines. I didn't say anything about the guideline being unclear. I also don't see the relevance of 'putting one or two of the other of "your examples", on my user talk page - instead of at Simple Talk'. Why are you taking issue with this being brought up on WP:ST when you specifically requested for 3 examples of "frivolous" discussions? You seem to completely miss the point, and your statement above simply serves to confirm how you have been particularly problematic in community discussions. Chenzw  Talk  03:48, 15 September 2017 (UTC)
  • Strong Support* Reminding me of my past self, pretty much every message on his/her talk page is a notification of error. Additionally, the user is Checkblocked on enwiki at this current time (one-strike rule). I support whatever repercussions Chen feels is appropriate.
Computer Fizz (talk) 16:30, 14 September 2017 (UTC)
  • Reminding you of your past self, Computer Fizz? So my comment above is relevant - Nobody's perfect. Did you get blocked for all those errors? And why should someone's behaviour on one wiki be cause to block on another? I barely consider myself competent. I've messed up more than once on here and had to have people correcting me. Everyone on here who doesn't speak English as a first language is potentially not competent. DaneGeld (talk) 20:01, 14 September 2017 (UTC)
But that's just it--the community ban is what fixed it. Per Chenzw, it's the community part that stood out to me--I just got pissed off at the blocking admin beforehand Computer Fizz (talk) 20:50, 14 September 2017 (UTC)
  • Comment. I'm having a hard time with this one.
I'll note, first of all, that this user does seem to be subject to WP:ONESTRIKE at this point. And if an admin goes in that direction, s/he will have what to stand on.
Beyond that, the truth is that this user is, to quote myself (thank you, @Chenzw), a pretty good wikilawyer. Almost any one of his edits can probably be justified by a certain perspective on the policy or guideline in question. In my view, what this comes down to is a balance between "anyone can edit" and the smooth functioning of this community.
Figure that in really small wikis (like Ladino Wikipedia, where I'm a sysop), there are so few contributors that you take what you can get, within reason. You only step in if there's a serious violation of the rules. In really large wikis (like English Wikipedia), the community is so large and diverse that you really cannot say that someone's "style" is disruptive; you have to rely on a reading of the rules to create some order.
In a community this size, however, things aren't quite the same. A community this size has a culture that is important to its functioning. Yet someone can come in and disrupt that culture, arguably within a technical reading of the rules. That's where we are right now.
Thus, the community has been trying to tell @Sju hav that it interprets policies and guidelines a certain way. Yes, it concedes, there are potentially other ways to look at the policies and guidelines. But that's not how we do things here. And we'd really like you to stick to the culture we've created here; we don't want to become a place that is overly burdened by specific rules. And the user has basically said that he doesn't care—as long as there's an interpretation that works for him, he will do things just the way he pleases, even if it doesn't fit the community's general approach to the problem. So as a result he's made himself a real pain in the backside—someone greatly disrupting the culture here—and yet has done so in a way that probably just technically stays within the rules.
Now, all that said: the idea of Wikipedia as "the encyclopedia that anyone can edit" is pretty powerful. Several people here are very big on that. @Auntof6, for one, tries very hard to avoid issuing blocks that many other admins would make because she believes so strongly in this. So what has priority here? "Anyone can edit"? Or the smooth functioning of this community in order to facilitate the creation of the encyclopedia?
On the whole, while I'm going to reserve final judgment, I'm inclined to think that we need a limited-duration community ban right now. We need a break from Sju hav, and yet we need to give one more chance before preventing him from editing the encyclopedia "that anyone can edit". While ONESTRIKE can be applied here, I'm not sure that we need to invoke the nuclear option just yet.
At the same time, Sju hav, you need to think about why we really don't seem to want you around here. We're not interested in spending a lot of time arguing; we could all go to English Wikipedia if we wanted to do that. So, Sju hav, can you live here and get along with the community? Can you do things someone else's way in order to try to keep a sense of harmony in the community? Or does it have to be your way? Because if it has to be your way, we might as well just indef you now and stop arguing. StevenJ81 (talk) 22:32, 14 September 2017 (UTC)
I have read the first 2 sentences of your post. You are saying, more or less that some/many of my edits seem to not contribute to the smooth running of the community. I will take that to heart.
(Please try not to use the term wiki-lawyering, later in this discussion. In popular culture, a person who "lawyers-up" is arguably, more or less guilty. Arguably, "wiki-lawyering" is a stigmatizing term, more or less. It is likely/possible that more than one person here thinks that the term is stigmatizing and perhaps somewhat unnecessary.) Sju hav (talk) 12:38, 15 September 2017 (UTC)
For the record, I don't think StevenJ81's use of the term is "unnecessary"; on the contrary, I think it is perfectly acceptable given the evidence - you are engaged in wikilawyering, and using any other less "stigmatizing" term does not change the fact. Chenzw  Talk  12:42, 15 September 2017 (UTC)
In hindsight, I must accept that quite a few (or many) of my edits have not contributed to the smooth running of the community.
Labelling me (or anyone) as a wiki-criminal, has perhaps never been the way things are done on Wikipedia.
Okay, please continue to label me as a wiki-lawyer, and also please label me at the same time as a wiki-criminal.
To me, the stigma is about the same.
I regret that I did not try hard enough, to accept the wiki-lawyer label, earlier on.
I will try to reply in fewer words, if I feel that my reply can add something more or less significant.
In the minutes or hours that this thread might be open, I will try to remember to reply at least one time with: Perhaps I should not say that I disagree. I will try to tie my tongue, for every post that someone else makes.
Thank you. Sju hav (talk) 18:53, 15 September 2017 (UTC)
No one ever said that wiki-lawyer = "wiki-criminal". It is your own problem if you want to victimize yourself. I take issue with your statement that "Labelling me (or anyone) as a wiki-criminal, has perhaps never been the way things are done on Wikipedia." What exactly are you trying to insinuate? "[R]eply(ing) in fewer words" is only part of the solution; you need to stop your backhanded comments, and before someone takes it as an issue with WP:CIVIL. Also, in response to "Perhaps I should not say that I disagree. I will try to tie my tongue, for every post that someone else makes." - no one said that you cannot disagree with something. Chenzw  Talk  01:42, 16 September 2017 (UTC)
Arguably a picture has been painted of me (at Simple Talk and at wp:AfD), as a
wiki-shyster, but only using the labels "wiki-lawyer"/"wiki-lawyering".
That many disagree with my view in this post - I am not arguing that.
Perhaps you and I can agree to disagree on the neutrality of the contextual use of "wiki-lawyering" and "wiki-lawyer".
Comment - Since yesterday, it has dawned on me, that I will be banned (with a block unlikely at this point in time, and other options even less likely).
I have enjoyed editing, and I hope that some of the edits have been found useful.
If I had put effort in staying away from discussion pages, perhaps this proposal for ban would not have happened, or not have happened as early as this time.
If I had put more of my questions/concerns on my discussion page, instead of Simple Talk, perhaps this proposal for ban would not have happened, or not have happened as early as this time.
It is my claim that I have matured somewhat since January. (I have not been tempted at being a sockpuppet, even when blocked for one month at Danish, early in the summer. Before January (and for parts of January?), I had no intention of heeding blocks or bans that were supposed to last for more than one month. When I got the Danish-wiki block - one month - then I made a conscious effort to respect blocks and bans, from then on (, and as a continuance of my respect since January, of the en-wiki ban.)
Even if my claim were to be taken at face value, or found to be a reasonable claim, it might not make any difference in this discussion.
Have I ever been unfairly treated at wikipedia?
My answer is "pehaps not treated unfairly".
If there is any unfairness on wikipedia,
it is in my opinion so insignificant, that I can not see it. Sju hav (talk) 11:45, 15 September 2017 (UTC)
(I have not read any of the edits since yesterday evening. If this thread is not closed by tomorrow, hopefully by then I will have seen and answered anything that the admins might (now) feel that I have not answered clearly). Done. Sju hav (talk) 12:20, 15 September 2017 (UTC)
  • Oppose. I think the restrictions suggested by Peterdownunder are sufficient enough. The community ban is definitely much too harsh, and Sju hav's edits have been better since the proposal was started. Zhangj1079 (Saluton!) 23:12, 19 September 2017 (UTC)
  • Support Communty ban: as a net negative to the project, tiresome and as entirely outlined by Chenzw, both an administrator and bureaucrat here on Simple Wikipedia. If it is enough for Chenzw, there is certainly enough listed, named and observed by me, an editor. Thank you, Fylbecatulous talk 00:14, 20 September 2017 (UTC)

Being "indirectly" banned or blocked from Deutsch-wiki - without the end-of-punishment date (for that wiki)[change source]

I would prefer, that I do not experience the following "collateral damage (en)": Being banned or blocked from Deutsch-wiki - without also being given an exact date, for when the (upcoming) punishment will end (, in regard to editing at Deutsch-wiki).
I have done the linked edits, on wiki-Deutsch [9].
I believe that I have not done stuff there, that I have done on other Wikipedias: Discussing things in a manner that a large part of administrators might (or do) not like; or
write in not-good-enough Danish language, or
write in not-good-enough Swedish language.
My edits on Deutsch-wiki have been quite disciplined.
(I take for granted that one can muster five or fifty or more wikipedians, to show a majority view, "more or less", that I also should be banned from Deutsch-wiki, forever.
I am not arguing that. (And respect the idea, that the previous two sentences (or cirka 40 words) here, is not text that should be common in wiki-discussions. I am using those words, because I do not have a university degree in communication ...)
I am simply asking if there are any adequate reasons, why any ban (or block) that will concern Deutsch-wiki,
should not have an end-of-punishment date (for that wiki). Sju hav (talk) 12:02, 16 September 2017 (UTC)
My edits (on Deutsch-wiki) have been quite limited in scope,
and have been in regard to cirka 4 different topics:
two Norwegian authors, and
one Norwegian painter, and
Diskussion:Laos.
Since Dezember 2016, cirka one edit, about each topic.
(And I have mentioned my interest in Sword of Grossenwieden, and mentioned my "work about" (being the first, and so far only)
to "spread the German article", to another Wikipedia - simple-wiki).
Thank you. Sju hav (talk) 12:23, 16 September 2017 (UTC)
I do not see the relevance of your edits on dewiki in this discussion, or you are not stating the relevance clearly. Your "prefer[ence], that I do not experience the following collateral damage" is invalid for 2 reasons:
  • You do not get to choose whether you are subject to "collateral damage".
  • There is no "collateral damage" anyway, for blocks on this wiki do not automatically carry forward to other wikis. Since, as you said, your edits on dewiki "have been quite disciplined", nothing will happen to you on dewiki.
"I take for granted that one can muster five or fifty or more wikipedians, to show a majority view, 'more or less', that I also should be banned ..." - are you trying to insinuate that I, as the ban proposer, am leading an unjustified lynch mob against you? Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. This is your last warning. I will report you to another administrator the next time I see you trying to slander me. One does not need a "university degree in communication" to communicate well. Chenzw  Talk  12:51, 16 September 2017 (UTC)
As far as I can see, I am the only one here who does not have a good reputation.
No one is involved in a campaign against me. (There is no campaign against me.)
What I tried to say, was more or less: "I have just written a paragraph, and I can imagine that many (or even a majority) do object (or might object), to the content of my paragraph; be that as it may, I am asking the community to refrain from immediately jumping on the opportunity to say: Sju hav, your opinion is totally wrong, and then having three or fifty more doing the same thing (over the next 12 hours or couple of days);
Furthermore, what I tried to say: I already accept that my view in the paragraph, is likely to "have views (from other wikipedians) that are opposite of mine". And that is a fair matter, in a democratic system.
I do not have a university degree in Communication. It is unfortunate if something I have written, will widely be understood (or read) as the opposite of what I was trying to say (or as anything that I was not trying to say). Sju hav (talk) 13:31, 16 September 2017 (UTC)
  • Hello all, I think it would be time to calm down. First of all: Looking at Sju hav's edits I see many edits on User/User talk/Talk/Project pages, and relatively few on content (most of them: List of ...). I haven't counted, but I'd say it is about two thirds to one third. Secondly: We can take into account that Sju hav was banned at another wikis, but we should assess whether he gets banned here based solely on the work done on this wiki. I recently wrote two stubs about Middle Eastern scientists. I neither have any relation to the Middle East, nor to the fields of science these people were active in. So the question should not be: is everyone an expert in the subject he/she writes articles about (in that case Wikipedia would not exist). I think in the end, it is the fact that I have a helpful attitude. And yes: I do have a university degree in communication science, but I don't think it matters. Willy Brandt got a Nobel prize for his work, and he did not have a university education at all; he simply started writing as a journalist, and with the time he improved. In short: what we are looking for are editors with a helpful attitude; we also accept them without Nobel prize, or university degree (though for mathematics it would more likely be the Fields medal). Some other clarifications: In my opinion, this issue (community ban) should be settled 20th September, at the latest; I also think it would be good that a bureaucrat take the decision, but thats just my opinion. --Eptalon (talk) 14:32, 16 September 2017 (UTC)

Ban proposal[change source]

I have been following the above discussion closely, and also watching everything Sju hav has been editing. It is clear that his actions have created concerns for the community. It is also clear that the community want action taken to resolve the issues fairly. Sju hav does have a record of problems on other wikis, which does mean that he can be treated under our one strike rule. At this time, I propose some restrictions on Sju hav's edits, which can be reviewed again in six months. If he is unable, or unwilling to follow the restrictions, then an immediate and indefinite ban would be put in place. The restrictions cover the areas that have created this discussion in the first place. I also suggest that one or two experienced editors work with Sju hav as mentors, and that he communicates with them on his talk page.

  1. No discussions about what is happening/or has happened on other wikis.
  2. No complaints about the actions of other editors or administrators.
  3. No extended discussions about our policies or practices ("wikilawyering")
  4. No creation of new list pages
  5. Questions to be restricted to his talk page where his mentors will engage with him
  6. Demonstrate competence in Simple English through the creation of stubs on the people that he has already added to lists.

I would like other editors to comment on the above restrictions, Sju hav is not to comment please, but to listen. I am prepared to act as a mentor, and would welcome another person to assist.--Peterdownunder (talk) 21:08, 17 September 2017 (UTC)

I would support something along these lines, in part because I see Sju hav making better contributions lately. However, I would also like to hear from Sju hav about whether he/she would cooperate with this. --Auntof6 (talk) 15:34, 18 September 2017 (UTC)
I suggest no editing of existing list pages, either. Some of the editor's recent work has been unproductive formatting and organizing of existing list pages. I also suggest making it clear that this is a trial, and not a guarantee that a block or ban won't happen. --Auntof6 (talk) 20:02, 19 September 2017 (UTC)
I am thinking "5." could perhaps say something like
Questions - which ordinarily might belong on Simple Talk - to be restricted to his talk page where his mentors will engage with him.
I am thinking "6." could perhaps say:
Demonstrate competence in Simple English through the creation of stubs on people that he has already added to lists.
What this thread is saying, sounds like it could be worth a try. (If some object to the wording in the last sentence - I still have not started work on my university degree in Communication.) Sju hav (talk) 17:46, 18 September 2017 (UTC)
Having a "List creation quota" of "4 over a 7-day period", where any such List has at least 4 "blue-link main subjects".
I have no plans about creating 4 lists every week - however I think my suggestion is reasonable. Sju hav (talk) 18:06, 18 September 2017 (UTC)
@Sju hav: you were asked not to comment in this section while we consider an option other than a complete ban. For the record, though, I would oppose your suggested change to #5. --Auntof6 (talk) 20:02, 19 September 2017 (UTC)
  • I'm not entirely thrilled to pieces with number 2, stopping Sju hav from making complaints about other editors or administrators effectively creates a one sided debate. If someone does something which is wrong, he should have the option to make a complaint (maybe through another user, to clarify whether it's a valid complaint). To simply remove his right to complain isn't an ideal thing. Other than that, the rest of the proposal looks good - certainly better than simply kicking him out! DaneGeld (talk) 18:13, 18 September 2017 (UTC)
  • I'll perhaps put it differently (I know it is more difficult to manage): I see Sju Hav as a full member of our community, and I (along with other editors) value his/her edits on content pages. I also think that in the context of finding someone else do something inapproporiate ("vandals"), Sju Hav should have the possibility ot bring this behaviour to the attention of admins/vanval fighters/etc; Same with content pages: Questions about whether a certain section in an article is appropriate should go to that article's talk page (as is common for such a procedure). I'd put it differently: at least half of the Sju Hav's edits go to content pages (That is: articles/article talk pages); as to new List pages: I partly agree, as to discussions about rules/procedures: I also agree. Other wikis do not interest us as much, so discussions on those do not need restriction, as they likely will not occur. "Simple Enlgish" (If it really exists is somrething that can be acquired; so I'd suggest: When there are 20-30 stubs (not list of.., but articles about subjects/people) where Sju Have has contributed, two editors look at those stubs; if they are deemed ok, we talk again? --Eptalon (talk) 20:19, 18 September 2017 (UTC)
  • I'll rephrase to be in line with the others: Support the Proposal of Peterdownunder, oppose original ban; Peter's proposal to be modified, as follows:
  • Item 1 (No discussions on what is happening/has happened on other wikis) is not necessary, and can be left out
  • Item 2:(Complaints about other editors' actions): To go the normal route, that is: report to vandalism in progress, perhaps mention on WP:AN/WP:ST
  • Item 3, Item 6 (Wikilawyering,Competence) Unchanged
  • Item 4: (Creation of new List pages): In accordance with mentors, max. 25 % of the edits
  • Item 5: (Questions) Q's on articles on the article's Talk page; free on other questions, which will mostly land on his/her talk page, or mentors' talk pages
  • Item 7 (new): At least half of Sju Hav's edits are in main space (Article/Article talk)
Re-assessment six months from the start of these restrictions.--Eptalon (talk) 16:50, 20 September 2017 (UTC)
  • Seems like a pretty good proposal, though it would need some tweaks. Definitely much better than the community ban, considering Sju hav's edits have improved significantly over the past week or so. DaneGeld also made a good point with number 2, I think Sju hav should at least be able to point certain things out, though in a civil manner. As for Sju hav's suggestion with regards to list articles, I would oppose completely. In my opinion, it's too soon to tell whether or not Sju hav can be trusted with creating list articles, as the fiasco (as I would call it) happened not too long ago, though I think that by the time the review in six months, that restriction can be eased. Other than that, I support this proposal. Zhangj1079 (Saluton!) 02:14, 19 September 2017 (UTC)
  • I'm good with this. As for 2 & 3, I assume Sju hav's concerns would be brought up on his talk page for mentors to assess suitability to move into regular discussion pages? And as Eptalon said, article discussion would happen in the article talk page. List articles I would prefer only a month restriction on creating, even if other restrictions are longer. --Tbennert (talk) 02:38, 19 September 2017 (UTC)
Also, while I'm not comfortable being a mentor, I am comfortable in helping with simplifying/wikifying articles and would gladly engage with Sju hav on article talk pages. --Tbennert (talk) 02:47, 19 September 2017 (UTC)

Just a point of note, at this point the original ban proposal is sitting at 5 for and 1 reject with a the typical one week period almost up. I realize another discussion is going on here on an alternative, but people will need to indicate one way or the other on the original or it will pass. I am not against Peter's proposal, but I think the mentoring thing will just add to the problem as it will be sucking up the time of what few editors we have. That being said if we do go with the alternate #4 is key. This is what seems to be causing most of his problems. He needs a topic ban from list articles no matter what happens. -DJSasso (talk) 13:11, 19 September 2017 (UTC)

  • I would support this proposal but I have an issue with 2 - Everyone should have a right to complain about editors or admins providing it's an actual legitimate complaint and not the crap Sju had previously been doing, Anyway everyone deserves a second chance and it goes without saying if any of those above (except 2) are violated then they be indeffed . –Davey2010Talk 15:34, 19 September 2017 (UTC)
  • With 2 the editor should stick to making complaints on their talkpage and an admin/mentor could look at them and decide if it's actionable but it should be noted Sju shouldn't fill up their page with complaints, As I said everyone deserves to make legit complaints about anyone providing it's in a civil and meaningful manner. –Davey2010Talk 15:37, 19 September 2017 (UTC)
  • Support Peter's proposal; oppose (for now) original ban. I'm ok with a few tweaks here and there to the "where he can comment" question, especially after the first month. I think the ban on list articles needs to be absolute for at least a month, then limited to one or two a week, subject to requirements discussed elsewhere. One of the mentors should be an administrator, who will be free to invoke ONESTRIKE without further discussion. I disagree with the point made by @DJSasso: there has been sufficient discussion of an alternative here to make it clear that the community is seeking an alternative to the original proposal. StevenJ81 (talk) 02:44, 20 September 2017 (UTC)
Not really, there at the time of my comment were less people commenting in this section than had commented up there. But like I said, I am fine with if the community wants to try something else, as long as they are aware he will be blocked at even the slightest grey area due to WP:ONESTRIKE since any admin is free to block on those grounds anyway. This ban discussion was more about do we want to make sure the community has to be consulted if he is unblocked at en than it was about should we block him now or not since he already meets the criteria for a block. A one strike block would mean unblocking here when he was unblocked there whereas a community one wouldn't mean he could be unblocked automatically. A lot of effort is being put into figuring an alternative out that I suspect won't last more than a couple days. (and I make that prediction because he is currently still editing list articles when anyone that had clue would know when there is a discussion going on to block your editing of list articles you should probably hold off until the discussion is done) -DJSasso (talk) 11:23, 20 September 2017 (UTC)
  • Support Peter's proposal - I want this resolved quickly and so I am fine to accept the proposal exactly as written. Any non-compliance during the 6 months should result in an immediate community onestrike as previously supported. That said, I support the original ban proposal if this one is not accepted.--Tbennert (talk) 14:37, 20 September 2017 (UTC)
@Tbennert: Could you be clearer? There is no such thing as a "community onestrike". There are bans, which are community decisions and require community decisions to undo, and there are blocks based on the onestrike provision, which would be at an admin's discretion to implement or undo. --Auntof6 (talk) 16:04, 20 September 2017 (UTC)
What Djsasso said about the community discussion meaning he wouldn't be unblocked automatically. Sorry I'm using the wrong words. I meant the original ban proposal put forth by Chenzw should be what happens if Sju hav does not follow the restrictions. Basically, I don't want another community discussion required when he doesn't comply. --Tbennert (talk) 16:18, 20 September 2017 (UTC)

List of historians [10][change source]

One or more (not I), have created a lot of red links in List of historians.
Which editors should be threatened with: "If you put in more than one red-link, and you do not write the article "about the red link", then one will ask for that you will be banned.
This edit [11], was the creation of the article.
How should that person responsible, be "motivated" (or punished) for putting in a many red-links?
I have not added any red-links to that article.
Feel free to ask Jimbo Wales, if such was one of the intentions, when he started wikipedia.
(Threatening people with a ban, in part so that they will create articles/stubs.)
(As far as I know, the subject of this thread, has nothing to do with the current proposal for having me banned.
But if the leadership prefers to have this thread, as a sub-thread to the proposal to ban me, I will not protest (in part because I don't think that where one puts this thread, will mean a lot to anyone). Sju hav (talk) 10:53, 14 September 2017 (UTC)
Blaming other people for things they did (or did not) do may be very satisfying in the short run, but it does not solve the problem. Solving the problem (ideally without angering other people), or finding a solution everyone can live with is generally a better approach: Taking the List of scientists from the Middle East, how many of those links did you write (stubs are enough)? - Or take any of the other lists of scientits for the countries where we did not find 4 entries, and create stubs there. The magic word is: content work, not administrative/rearranging will make us happy in the long run... --Eptalon (talk) 11:00, 14 September 2017 (UTC)
@Eptalon: I suggested once that he turn a red link into an article and told that my suggesting he do that was questionable and objectionable and then opened a simple talk thread about politeness of suggesting people write articles. So you should know that your suggestion here to turn red links into articles might not be well received. Only (talk) 11:40, 14 September 2017 (UTC)
Eptalon is explaining his point of view just fine. Sju hav (talk) 11:47, 14 September 2017 (UTC)
I'm not sure I get the intention of this thread. What are you asking the community to do or discuss? Only (talk) 11:40, 14 September 2017 (UTC)
I think Sju hav thinks you will be banned for adding red links, but that's simply not true. Red links are good, especially for a wiki this small. They let us know what to create! Computer Fizz (talk) 17:34, 14 September 2017 (UTC)
Red links are helpful that way in article text, but not always in other places. For example, they are less accepted in templates and in "related pages" sections. --Auntof6 (talk) 17:52, 14 September 2017 (UTC)

While we're on the subject of competence...[change source]

Can I honestly and openly ask for comment please? I have spoken (along with at least one administrator) to a user here who seems to be having extreme difficulty with getting the message about writing articles in Simple English. At this point in time, no fewer than 7 of their articles have been moved to userspace because they're not considered suitable for mainspace. Comments from me and from the administrator concerned have gone unanswered, the user has never replied or commented to us on the issue, and they just keep on rolling. With all the talk about WP:CIR, would you consider an inability to understand and follow instructions, a competence issue, and if so, would it be amenable to the community to commence block proceedings against the user concerned if they do not interact with the people who are trying to help them? DaneGeld (talk) 20:59, 14 September 2017 (UTC)

FYI, I intended the last messages I left for that user to be the first in a series of escalating messages. If I see the same problems again, I will leave more strongly worded messages. (Others are welcome to leave such messages if they see it before I do.) If that doesn't work, we might need to ban the user from creating articles that haven't been checked for simplicity by another editor who's competent at that. Just my 2 cents worth. --Auntof6 (talk) 22:59, 14 September 2017 (UTC)
Wikipedia is a collaborative project, and interacting with other editors is an inevitable thing (I am not going to use "mandatory" for now). If an editor, for whatever reason, can't bring himself to talk to other editors to discuss issues, or even do them the courtesy of acknowledging messages, then said editor should consider diverting their energy elsewhere. Chenzw  Talk  03:54, 15 September 2017 (UTC)

Category deletions[change source]

I've noticed that a lot of categories get deleted for "being created with too few entries" (less than three), but the quick deletion policy only allows empty categories to be quickly deleted. Could we consider adding a new QD option for categories with less than three entries? Or could QD C1 be changed? J991 16:31, 15 September 2017 (UTC)

I don't think it should be a quick deletion option. We do have some exceptions to the three-entry rule, so describing which underpopulated categories could be qd'd could be complicated. --Auntof6 (talk) 16:56, 15 September 2017 (UTC)
I think that this is a complicated case, and I am against qd'ing "near-empty" categories. Sometimes, categories we have are too narrow, and there is no meaningful way of filling them; in other cases, articles change cateogry, which means that the category becomes "near empty". The supernatural horror movies RfD we had recently, also concerned the subcategories; if you have 3-4 movies per category, a category such as "supernatural horror movies from the 1980s" does not make sense. Similarly, if 80-90% of the articles you have are about US movies, a subcategory such as "supernatural horror movies from the united states" does not make much sense. In any case: except for the most trivial case of re-categorizing 3-4 articles, and deleting the category, deleting a category should be part of a discussed deletion/regular RfD. --Eptalon (talk) 12:26, 16 September 2017 (UTC)
Three items is just a rule of thumb. If a category had an article or two in it I would almost always just go find a stub to create to fill it. Or I would move the article that is in it to a more general category in which case the category would end up empty and CSD worthy in a few days. The 3 item rule was more what we tell people before they create a category to make sure they have 3. It was never really intended as a delete reason (when you can solve the issue by the methods mentioned above). -DJSasso (talk) 16:07, 16 September 2017 (UTC)
Perhaps not a strong argument, but this category page is "cluttered" by at least two articles, (about two) from the same country.
(To "Be bold", and create the "Mathematician from ..." category, is not an option, considering my current (involuntary) status as "wiki-lawyer".) Sju hav (talk) 17:29, 16 September 2017 (UTC)
First, please stop acting like a victim. Your more recent work here hasn't been an issue, and no one has said that you shouldn't do reasonable things. Second, if there are at least three mathematicians from the same country, you can create a category (although it should be named "<nationality> mathematicians" to be consistent with the similar categories). --Auntof6 (talk) 18:20, 16 September 2017 (UTC)
When I write in the future, it is best that the text does not look like, one is trying to write like a victim. Sju hav (talk) 19:46, 17 September 2017 (UTC)

Supernatural horror movies: recategorize?[change source]

Hello all, the decision was taken to keep the cateory Category:Supernatural horror movies. This category only contains subcategories; 14 articles are in "American supernatural horror movies", most of them also show up in one of the "by-decade" categories (1980s, 1990s,..). Since all entries we have are American, I don't think the "American Supernatural Horror movies" subcategory makes sense. Similarly, the "by decade categories" are on the brink of notability. So I see the following options:

  • Move all articles into "Supernatural horror movies", forget about the subcats (delete them); this leaves us with 14 articles there.
  • Classify by decade(or similar), making sufficiently broad categories to end up with at least 3-item-categories; we will get 3-4 items per category, and we forget about the "American supernatural..." and delete it
  • Keep the current situation; 12 of the 14 entries are both in the "by decade", and in the "American..."

As I already said, I would go with moving all 14 entries to the parent ("Supernatural horror movies") and getting rid of the subcats. What do other people think? --Eptalon (talk) 10:18, 18 September 2017 (UTC)

I'd leave them in the parent. I generally never feel like we need sub categories until we have so many articles in a category that it pushes some to a second page. (To make it clear that isn't wiki policy in any way. It is just a personal opinion I tend to follow when deciding if we need one). -DJSasso (talk) 11:34, 18 September 2017 (UTC)
All done, we are left with 13 articles, and no subcategories (deleted, because they were empty). What I have also seen is that some articles have many categories...--Eptalon (talk) 15:17, 18 September 2017 (UTC)

Discussion on synced reading lists[change source]

CKoerner (WMF) (talk) 20:35, 20 September 2017 (UTC)