Talk:Gonzalo Lira

Notability and sourcing

This article talks about a person that doesn't really have a presence outside of social media, where he appears on the outside to exclusively be posting heavily-biased political posts. Talk about his activity and apparent death is not making any news outside of depreciated sources like The Grayzone or sources considered generally unreliable like The Post Millennial, and the only other references to him being made are from less-reliable organizations (including non-English ones) using one or both of the two as their sources.

Additionally, this page has exclusively been created and edited by an account that was made yesterday, and the lack of sources regarding this person at all outside of the aforementioned fringe sources make me doubt the need for this article to exist. There's also no equivalent page for this person on the regular English site, which makes me further doubt the notability of this person. I'm gonna go ahead and tag the article for notability and accuracy because of these problems (will note that they might not have been created correctly since I am inexperienced with tagging). 155.33.134.20 (talk) 21:04, 12 January 2024 (UTC)

I doubt he is dead. 2603:6011:6224:1800:B506:C5AA:FE3:AAA5 (talk) 22:07, 12 January 2024 (UTC)

Ready, cite the article with reliable sources and his death is a recent fact, please verify. Please 57ntaledane9 (talk) 23:13, 12 January 2024 (UTC)

Somebody who's vaguely familiar with Lira here; he's only notable if you pay attention to incel/MGTOW/dating guru spaces, and lately pro-Russian propaganda. I wouldn't personally say he's notable enough, given the panoply of frankly awful people with similar opinions who go without wikipedia pages. 2A00:23C5:FE19:8901:87B:774A:8AA2:EFE7 (talk) 23:30, 12 January 2024 (UTC)

So, being an American Jailed, tortured and dying in Ukraine custody for exercise of free speech is not notable ? 74.15.206.158 (talk) 19:17, 15 January 2024 (UTC)

he has enough notability that if you were to look at page traffic today you probably would see a significant uptick. page should not be removed for notablity reasons.

I think that part of your reason for being upset is because this journalist posted realistic analysis of the fighting in Ukraine and where it was gonna lead, which is exactly where we are today. 2607:FB91:1C36:464D:B5EF:6391:26D1:3AD1 (talk) 23:32, 12 January 2024 (UTC)

That's obviously it. You can see it all over this page. He did a wrongthink. 173.95.54.227 (talk) 23:52, 12 January 2024 (UTC)

Probably going to be nominating this for deletion for notability reasons. This is not notable; why is this only on simple english wikipedia instead of English wikipedia as well? Seems very... weird to put it here and not the english wiki? What's the justification other than this likely would get deleted far far quicker? Chuckstablers (talk) 00:16, 13 January 2024 (UTC)

Seems that the only reason people want to delete this page is that it looks the Ukrainian regime look bad.

Where was the fervour to delete the page for "lack of notability" before January 12th?

Doesn't add up, you're dishonest people. Noticerwhonotices (talk) 02:15, 13 January 2024 (UTC)

Or maybe the reason we want the page gone is because it's a mess, and it would be better to start over. LilianaUwU ^{(talk / changes)} 02:19, 13 January 2024 (UTC)

The above user deleted my comment pointing [1] out that the page did not exist before January 12th [2] and therefore could not be asked to be deleted. Noticerwhonotices is demonstrably acting in bad faith to create a false perception that other users only acted after January 12th, when it was impossible to act before then. I feel the above should settle that anybody arguing this page should remain is doing so in bad faith. Professor Ninja (talk) 13:44, 13 January 2024 (UTC)

No, thats wrong, you just want to remove that which goes against your narrative of history.

Obviously. Noticerwhonotices (talk) 02:21, 13 January 2024 (UTC)

Or; hear me out here; it's a mess full of deprecated sources that certain users keep trying to add back! I can say with 100% confidence this page would be deleted within 24 hours at the full english wiki; I don't see why it would survive here either.

Also; stop accusing people of being 'biased'. It's childish and reflects poorly on you. You're 'supposed' to assume good faith. Chuckstablers (talk) 04:52, 13 January 2024 (UTC)

Sources used are unreliable, this article needs to be deleted

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Grayzone English wikipedia deprecated the use of the grayzone as an RS because it is a fringe source.

570 KVI is a far right radio station.

The only other source is a spanish source alleging that he died based on a handwritten note posted on X by somebody claiming to be his father. This is pretty obviously propaganda. If this was the case; why aren't you seeing this in RELIABLE SOURCES? Chuckstablers (talk) 00:19, 13 January 2024 (UTC)

Chuckstablers Hello, you just want to delete the article because it has Russian media sources. I give you reasons for the article to be maintained. Just a few hours ago, a relative of Gonzalo Lira, a prominent Chilean journalist in Ukraine, breaking the news that he had died, asked me why the refuted Western media have not delved into the issue. https://twitter.com/RealAlexRubi/status/1745863733438488629?t=CmUIhh4jRE4WXBYTMimaww&s=19 00:35, 13 January 2024 (UTC)

I don't think the deceased's relatives are lying 57ntaledane9 (talk) 00:37, 13 January 2024 (UTC)

That's nice that you feel that they're his relatives. Do you have a reliable source saying that? Chuckstablers (talk) 00:54, 13 January 2024 (UTC)

Twitter also isn't a source. You don't really seem to understand how reliable sources on wikipedia work. I'd urge you to look into it. Chuckstablers (talk) 00:54, 13 January 2024 (UTC)

I'm challenging the sources on essentially all of the content you're trying to add. Please read Wikipedia:Reliable sources. You need reliable sources. You need to take a step back here, feel free to add content if you can find a reliable source on it. Thanks. Chuckstablers (talk) 00:56, 13 January 2024 (UTC)

Chuckstablers PLEASE return the editions arbitrarily reverted by you the death is official CNN Chile has confirmed it the Chilean embassy, ​​the Chilean Foreign Ministry has made the news official please return edits about your biography 57ntaledane9 (talk) 01:03, 13 January 2024 (UTC)

Here's how we can move forward.

1.) If you add a source, ensure it's a reliable source. You have so far added the following sources.

2.) Stop saying he died; there's not enough to say that in wikivoice at this point.

3.) Ensure that what you're saying is actually sourced by what you're citing. You had added something claiming he has a daughter and family in Kyiv, yet the source you added didn't say that at all. Everything you added about his life was a user profile on a metal options trading website...

4.) Stop whole sale reverting to previous versions. If you want to add something, add a reliable sourced statement. Chuckstablers (talk) 01:11, 13 January 2024 (UTC)

Like you added greyzone; a literal fringe conspiracy theory website, the lowest type of sources. I'm not going to keep reverting you if you want to add nonsense conspiracy theory's to the article anymore, but all you're doing is guaranteeing that this is going to be deleted quickly. Not as quickly as it might be on the actual english wikipedia, but quickly nonetheless. Chuckstablers (talk) 01:12, 13 January 2024 (UTC)

Seems like the US State Department confirmed it to Newsweek. Not sure if the site is trusted as a reliable source, though. — Hijerovit (talk) 17:42, 13 January 2024 (UTC)

CNN Foreign Ministry confirms the death of Chilean journalist Gonzalo Lira, who was imprisoned in Ukraine

https://www.cnnchile.com/pais/gonzalo-lira-muerto-ucrania-periodista_20240112/— Preceding unsigned comment added by 57ntaledane9 (talk • contribs) 01:16, 13 January 2024 (UTC)

The above article no longer appears at all at CNN and generates a 404 error, a typical result when an article has been pulled for inaccuracy. Professor Ninja (talk) 04:04, 13 January 2024 (UTC)

Great! I added a bit about that in the death section and fixed the grammar.

My knee jerk reaction here when I saw the article was that literally 80% of the sources that you'd added were fringe websites that can't ever be used as sources, with entire sections about his life coming from a user profile on a metals website? And you or someone else saying he was "tortured" and died from "torture" or something like that? The source says he died of a lung infection, and that he did receive medical treatment but not for a couple of months after his condition worsened.

As long as we stick to reliable sources? Great! I got no problem there. I have an issue with absolute russian propaganda being parroted in wiki voice. Chuckstablers (talk) 01:31, 13 January 2024 (UTC)

The other issue I have is that almost all of the sources are not English. That's not necessarily a problem, but this is an English wikipedia. This would probably be better for a Chilean wikipedia, because at this point the only reliable english sources that have picked up on it are... business insider which actively debunks it (debunks Tucker Carlson, debunks the guy who allegedly died as a paid russian propagandist part of the alt right online anti feminist manosphere, etc etc).

Regardless; and I don't mean this with any snarkiness or bite, but this is almost certainly going to get deleted. It doesn't meet the notability criteria. Fundamentally, nobody really cares about someone that nobody has ever heard of before and that no english source/western source is picking up on/reporting about.

He was arrested because he chose to go to Ukraine, a country under martial law due to fighting for their right to exist, and propagate russian propaganda, call Ukraine a neo-nazi regime, harass Ukranian soldiers and spit in their faces (literally). They even let him out on bail, but he chose to continue doing this violating his bail conditions so back to prison he went; according to your own source. Then he got sick in prison and died. I don't see how any of this is noteworthy enough to warrant being it's own article. People break the law in Ukraine all the time. People die in prison all the time when they get sick. It tends to happen more when said country is in a total war of survival and under martial law. Chuckstablers (talk) 01:40, 13 January 2024 (UTC)

How many American citizens tortured and executed by a foreign government don't have their own article? At this point it would be better to delete Wikipedia entirely since you've lost all credibility. 24.161.60.232 (talk) 08:07, 13 January 2024 (UTC)

Is there any evidence Lira was tortured and executed? Especially given that Lira has been reported as "tortured and executed" previously in both 2022 and 2023, the statement needs to carry some significant evidence with it, even if he is dead. There's no reason to believe that even if he is dead, jail confers immortality and that Lira's reported respiratory complications were caused by several months in jail rather than several decades of being an overweight, unvaccinated 55-year-old heavy smoker, not to mention neglect from a health care system taxed by a war Lira incidentally supported. Professor Ninja (talk) 13:53, 13 January 2024 (UTC)

Of course not. There's zero evidence of any of his claims. There's plenty of evidence, including his telegram that he was a really awful bigot though. He literally called women over the age of 30 who are seeking a relationship "degenerate sluts" who were desperate to cure their "baby rabies" by finding a man to suck the soul out of and steal all of their money. He warned people against dating any woman over 30 for these very scientific reasons.

Going through his telegram channels has been a REAL TREAT. Giving me lots of sources for all the stuff the "biased western media" is saying about him. Chuckstablers (talk) 23:55, 14 January 2024 (UTC)

Delete

Delete— Preceding unsigned comment added by 57ntaledane9 (talk • contribs) 01:34, 13 January 2024 (UTC)

Then delete it. Chuckstablers (talk) 01:42, 13 January 2024 (UTC)

If you're not going to delete it, then at least fix the "far right" accusation (you guys like to throw around) in the intro. It should be a hyphenated word. 223.25.56.211 (talk) 06:37, 13 January 2024 (UTC)

He objectively is on the far right. Let's review.

1.) He is anti semitic; posting something to 4chan which I linked to in the article wherein he said that if the holocaust did happen, then jews should be super grateful to white men for saving them, and because jews are trying their best to destroy the white race it means that either the holocaust didn't happen or "hitler was right to hate them because they're ingrates". Flawless logic right there!

2.) He's a raging misogynst. He said that single childless women over 30 are to be avoided at all costs, because they're just "degenerate sluts" who want to cure their "baby rabies" by finding a man to suck the soul out of, marry and take all of his money/breed with. Truly a moral paragon!

3.) There's literally thousands of posts on telegram of him spreading hilarious russian propaganda, including the claim that (no joke here), the russian ministry of defense has never lied. Ever.

Idk; seems pretty far-right to me! Chuckstablers (talk) 23:59, 14 January 2024 (UTC)

Disrespectful

My ten cents worth: this article as it stands now disrespects a journalist who is of a no less stature than Julian Assange. He was murdered in cold blood for exposing the truth. I encourage Wikipedia to change the tone of voice in this article to better reflect Gonzalo’s towering impact as a journalist. The allegation that he is not notable is utter claptrap, pure malarkey, and totally risible. 103.50.33.16 (talk) 07:37, 13 January 2024 (UTC)

Given the above statement's extensive use of jargon associated with Conservopedia, it should be clear where this is originating from. Regardless, Lira is not a journalist but rather a pick-up artist, there is no evidence he is even dead (he has been reported murdered by the same sources in 2022 and against in 2023), there is no evidence that even if he is dead that he was murdered (the same social media sources treated as credible by the pro-keep users were used by the middle-aged Lira himself to show he was a heavy smoker and unvaccinated, making respiratory complications expected), and there is no evidence he did any competent reporting other than hosting YouTube and Rumble videos giving his opinion. Professor Ninja (talk) 13:49, 13 January 2024 (UTC)

His death is all over the news you moron! You’re just another pro-Washington puppet forever trying to silence any criticism of that arch-criminal Zelensky! 46.199.204.231 (talk) 15:27, 13 January 2024 (UTC)

Regarding Gonzalo Lira's "notability" in Ukraine & social media it is impossible to separate him from Sarah Aston-Carillo, an American journalist who was in Kharkiv, Ukraine at the same time as Lira. Unlike Aston-Carillo, who meets notability guidelines of Wikipedia outside the realm of Ukraine and has a body of work as evidence of being a journalist, Lira's editors' claims of Lira's notability is only other social media or questionable media sources their referrals to him being a journalist. In the link, you can see reference to Lira, but only of minimal significance, including previous claims of his death. FWIW, whether Lira deserves a wiki page doesn't matter to me, but IMHO, establishing whether he is a journalist, in a manner consistent to how Aston-Carillo is considered a journalist as per wikipedia guidelines, would be a first step to determining Lira's notability and right to have a wikipedia page itself. Put another way, where is his body of work establishing him as a journalist? 67.241.155.177 (talk) 16:31, 13 January 2024 (UTC)

His many YouTube reports. 169.57.129.31 (talk) 18:36, 13 January 2024 (UTC)

Having a YouTube channel isn't journalism per se. Professor Ninja (talk) 19:56, 13 January 2024 (UTC)

It's really not all over the news, nobody's a pro-Washington puppet, and there is no arch-criminal. Professor Ninja (talk) 19:55, 13 January 2024 (UTC)

Given your statement sounds like a cliche the lack of selfawareness of your obvious bias is instructive of your nature. Journalism is an act and he was reporting on the ground in a war zone, he was by any sensible definition a journalist. That your definition likely requires anointment by a corporation is telling of how far your type has fallen. Gonzalo Lira exposed psyops like the fake mercenaries and Bucha, and was silenced for it. 2601:646:9B00:9A40:F4EB:55F2:57A0:71A1 (talk) 09:45, 26 January 2024 (UTC)

Lmao 37.55.114.124 (talk) 19:49, 13 January 2024 (UTC)

Uh, he is not of the stature of Julian Assange.... On what planet do you reside? Seriously. Julian Assange was so significant he was able to get an article on the English Wikipedia. This guy would be removed in literally 1 hour due to not being remotely noteworthy before a bunch of right wing commentators/personalities started trying to make this a story.

The main one being somebody who was fired from Fox News for being too insane, and who had a convicted fraudster with no teeth on his show who said that he "TOTALLY LEGIT" slept with President Obama and snorted cocaine with him.

But honestly; if we're insistent on having an article on this guy? Great! I've found lots of reliable sources detailing his anti semitism, misogyny, racism, transphobia, holocaust denialism, war crime denialism, hilarious russian propaganda (my favourite one was when he said that Zelensky is scared because NATO won't get involved, while 2 hours later saying that NATO generals and troops are leading Ukranian troops in the war, or my second favourite; when he said that the Bucha massacre was a hoax despite the UN confirming that over a hundred innocent civilians were executed there and thrown in a mass grave). That's what the article can be I guess. Chuckstablers (talk) 23:01, 14 January 2024 (UTC)

> ook ook AAK 90.224.35.194 (talk) 00:20, 15 January 2024 (UTC)

Ah yes suddenly Fox News is the arbiter of journalism.

Its telling the lefts standard for journalism just means corporate acceptability, dissidents be damned. 2601:646:9B00:9A40:F4EB:55F2:57A0:71A1 (talk) 09:47, 26 January 2024 (UTC)

Not simple enough

This is Simple Wikipedia, and the language needs to be simple. This seems like a copy and paste from the deleted article from the English Wikipedia. BeŻet (talk) 15:41, 15 January 2024 (UTC)