Talk:Kidnapping of Shani Louk

But that's not who sprrad it

"Security experts interviewed by Agence France-Presse stated that the release of this video, along with others depicting deceased or captured civilians, was a deliberate and sophisticated form of propaganda. The intention was to evoke feelings of "helplessness, paralysis, and humiliation" among the population. The viral sharing of such content contributed to promoting Hamas' narratives."

But those videos of abused women were not spread by Hamas! They were shared by bystanders, mostly at the festival but also a few gawkers in Gaza. What Hamas currently have showing is all dead soldiers, and a few other armed men. They do seem designed to inspire "helplessness, paralysis, and humiliation" but by dominating the supposedly stronger soldiers.

I can't day whether they DID anything to abuse women, but I can't find much evidence they shared it.

I've found a few telegram channels with missing videos, but the only case if something a militant group tried to delete was just more graphic images of dead soldiers.

Abc I mean typical soldiers, not the lookout girls. In the videos the militants have shared the IDF lookout girls are taken hostage more gently than police arrest people in an Aussie city.

The narrative that they boasted about the and brutality is bizarre, particularly the focus on women, because they actually fairly actively hide it. The dead bodies in what they shared are almost all armed men. Bizarrely they seem to be more adverse to depicting women on the internet than they are to kidnapping them or shooting them.

Irtapil (talk) 17:31, 1 April 2024 (UTC)

I can't comment on the ways these images/videos spread. The attack on the festival was long planned; it is clerar that some of these people were killed on the spot, and others were kidnapped/abducted. It is also clear that the whole operation needed a way of how the media coverage was handled. I think back then, I heard that the pepetrators (Hamas, apparently?) used a similar way of spreading images than the IS (when they spread images/videos of people being executed). For my part, I can't judge if either is true. All I can say is that we are writing a Wikipedia, and as such we need a neural point of view. This means that contorversial statements need references; note: these refs don't need to be in English. If there's controversial materal, and we cannot find a reasonably reliable source for either POV, we need to remove the material. Eptalon (talk) 17:47, 1 April 2024 (UTC)

@Eptalon Used bold so they most constructive bits stands out, as in most relevant to this page. The rest is context that gets a bit speculative.

What's your source for the festival attack being long planned? The attacks on the day were, but everything mentioning planning and the festival says that wasn't part of the original plan, just opportunistic.

I'm not sure if linking the militant videos themselves is justified? If that's what you mean? But it probably is worth checking if the video of the woman this page is about seems to match the details of that reference. I think it might be describing a different set of videos.

As far as I can tell a lot of the messy undignified stuff was filmed by bystanders, at the festival. Everyone at there had phones. The woman in this this page seems to have been filmed by gawkers in Gaza. It just naturally went viral as a shocking story.

The militants shared some extremely violent propaganda, but it focuses almost exclusively on armed male victims, they've cherry picked the bits that make them look heroic. The stuff the Hamas militants shared themselves is a very "glorious military victory" story. It probably was intended to evoke feelings of "helplessness, paralysis, and humiliation" in Israelis, but it intended to do this by their military being easily defeated.

I wish I could find someone authoritative comparing the two sources of video s and two versions of the story. I can't be the only one whose noticed? The people who celebrated on 7 October had seen a very different event, and heard a very different story, to the people who were horrified about anyone celebrating. Neither of the extreme versions of the story were very accurate, the reality was probably a messy middle.

Irtapil (talk) 00:14, 2 April 2024 (UTC)

@Eptalon a thing we do need to get to the bottom of is where did that busk come from? that story is AFP, it's possible they even filmed it, Gaza is full of journalists. It's a specific and iconic video? there should be someone who knows where it came from by now? Irtapil (talk) 00:24, 2 April 2024 (UTC)

If it is a news agency, no matter if Reuters or AFP, or another one: providing images/stories is their core business. So you can't really blame them. We need to filter the info, and only keep the info that is relevant for this article. Eptalon (talk) 08:25, 2 April 2024 (UTC)

Move page?

The other Wikipedias have an article about her as 'killinh of Shani Louk', 'death of Shani Louk' or similar. Likely we should also move the page. Eptalon (talk) 17:39, 1 April 2024 (UTC)

@Eptalon only if this page covers that? it needs an update? Irtapil (talk) 00:18, 2 April 2024 (UTC)