Category talk:American rappers
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Ideas needed...
[change source]This category currently has over 200 pages in it, so it should likely be cleaned up:
- Categorizing by US-State will leave us with 50-odd categories (suposing that we treat Puerto Rico, etc the same way), and 4-5 pages per category, if they are spread evenly across the territory; this is likely no solution, becvause 50-odd subcategories is still unmanagable.
- Splitting by gender is not an option, as it is sexist; I have just closed an RfD where the parent category was gendered.
- Splitting by ethnicity (Latino, Black,...) is not an option either a black rapper is not noticably different from a Latino rapper. Also it opens up problems related to racism.
So what's the solution?--Eptalon (talk) 08:53, 15 May 2021 (UTC)
- I think categorising by US state is fine as long as we have a category "American rap musicians by state". Take a look at Category:American actors for example, that is how those are organised. --Ferien (talk) 09:21, 15 May 2021 (UTC)
- If we really need to subcategorize, I think by state is fine, no matter how many subcategories it results in. Entries for places that are not states (Washington DC and the territories) and entries for states that have fewer than three entries could remain in the main category. --Auntof6 (talk) 09:32, 15 May 2021 (UTC)
- So: One for each state; Guam, Puerto Rico, Washington DC (..) remain here, until we get 3-4 entries. Cites get their subcategory in the state, once it is meaningful to subcategorize. I would however suggest we only create the category once we get the three entries. If there are no rappers from Alaska (for example), there's on use having a category for them. Also, as an example: If all rappers from New York state, are from the city with the name (again, example) subcategorizing probably doesn't make sense.--Eptalon (talk) 10:36, 15 May 2021 (UTC)
- Shouldn't we categorise it like "Rappers from X" instead of "American rappers from X". For example, if they are from New York then we already know that they are American. --Ferien (talk) 11:32, 15 May 2021 (UTC)
- @Eptalon: pinging. --Ferien (talk) 11:35, 15 May 2021 (UTC)
- Lets not make this more complex than it already is: the Cuban immigrant, that spent most of his time on Barbados, and now does some rap music in New York is a Rap musician from New York...--Eptalon (talk) 11:47, 15 May 2021 (UTC)
- @Eptalon: It is just Category:American actors by state is like that too. I'm assuming that from in this situation is meaning someone in this category was born in New York, not that they moved there. I suppose they may be another nationality but they are from/they were born in New York. --Ferien (talk) 11:57, 15 May 2021 (UTC)
- Lets not make this more complex than it already is: the Cuban immigrant, that spent most of his time on Barbados, and now does some rap music in New York is a Rap musician from New York...--Eptalon (talk) 11:47, 15 May 2021 (UTC)
- @Eptalon: pinging. --Ferien (talk) 11:35, 15 May 2021 (UTC)
- Shouldn't we categorise it like "Rappers from X" instead of "American rappers from X". For example, if they are from New York then we already know that they are American. --Ferien (talk) 11:32, 15 May 2021 (UTC)
- So: One for each state; Guam, Puerto Rico, Washington DC (..) remain here, until we get 3-4 entries. Cites get their subcategory in the state, once it is meaningful to subcategorize. I would however suggest we only create the category once we get the three entries. If there are no rappers from Alaska (for example), there's on use having a category for them. Also, as an example: If all rappers from New York state, are from the city with the name (again, example) subcategorizing probably doesn't make sense.--Eptalon (talk) 10:36, 15 May 2021 (UTC)
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that's unclear: If you are "from New York" you were either born there, or you spent an important part of your life there. If you studied, and spent about 5-10 years in the place where you studied, would you not say, you were also from the state that place was in (if it isn't the same state)? --Eptalon (talk) 12:02, 15 May 2021 (UTC)- Look at George Floyd, he was born in North Carolina, but has the category "Singers from Texas"?--Eptalon (talk) 12:13, 15 May 2021 (UTC)
- Hmm, I'm wrong then.
- However, if it is saying "Singers from Texas" then maybe we should be doing the same thing by having "Rap musicians from X" instead of "American rap musicians from X". I think there is a reason for having "Rap musicians from X" instead of "American rap musicians from X" that I have just forgotten... --Ferien (talk) 12:22, 15 May 2021 (UTC)
- I have gone through all 200-odd entries, there are 23 subcategories for the different states. Too few entries: (2 each): Alabama, Tennessee, Washington (state); (1) Minnesota, South Carolina. Biggest ones are New York (47), California (42), Illinois (17), Georgia (13), Textas (12), Pennsylvania (11). --Eptalon (talk) 15:21, 15 May 2021 (UTC)
- Look at George Floyd, he was born in North Carolina, but has the category "Singers from Texas"?--Eptalon (talk) 12:13, 15 May 2021 (UTC)
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@Eptalon: 7 odd months later: I have remembered the reason. On enwiki's categorisation guide, it says here that we should say "People from Foo" not "Americans from Foo". Should we rename all these categories? --Ferien (talk) 16:16, 26 December 2021 (UTC)
- How many non-American rap-musicians from Foo do you know, and If we already know they are all from Foo, does it make sense to differentiate between Americans and non-Americans? - Probably not. So,if you insist, yes. --Eptalon (talk) 16:26, 26 December 2021 (UTC)
- In my mind if you're from New York (let's say) then you were likely born there or near there. In the case of the US, you are American if you are born there anyway, so it is probably not worth mentioning. The enwiki guideline further encourages me to rename the category and as you are ok with me doing so, I'll move the categories linking this talk page to explain why. Thanks, --Ferien (talk) 18:13, 26 December 2021 (UTC)
- But say, your parents immigrated to New York, for example from Cuba, but you have lived in New York a long time? - Would you then be "...from New York"? - In the case of Rap musicians, very often they have a "migrant background", are you fine saying that someone who spent a good part of his/her life in New York is from there? --Eptalon (talk) 18:18, 26 December 2021 (UTC)
- Yes, I would say so, and I think the guideline above encourages us to group these together. --Ferien (talk) 18:23, 26 December 2021 (UTC)
- But say, your parents immigrated to New York, for example from Cuba, but you have lived in New York a long time? - Would you then be "...from New York"? - In the case of Rap musicians, very often they have a "migrant background", are you fine saying that someone who spent a good part of his/her life in New York is from there? --Eptalon (talk) 18:18, 26 December 2021 (UTC)
- In my mind if you're from New York (let's say) then you were likely born there or near there. In the case of the US, you are American if you are born there anyway, so it is probably not worth mentioning. The enwiki guideline further encourages me to rename the category and as you are ok with me doing so, I'll move the categories linking this talk page to explain why. Thanks, --Ferien (talk) 18:13, 26 December 2021 (UTC)