Talk:Anne Braden

Improvement

I added some very important information to Anne Braden. Anything else? Angela Maureen (talk) 16:36, 31 May 2015 (UTC)

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Auntof6, I made some improvements to the page. Something else? Angela Maureen (talk) 16:48, 31 May 2015 (UTC)

The information you added was good, but it's directly copied from enwiki and needs to be simplified. You also left out the references in the text you copied. Why would you do that when you know references are needed? --Auntof6 (talk) 16:58, 31 May 2015 (UTC)

I added more references to Anne Braden. Which sentences could be simplified? What are the complex words in the article? Angela Maureen (talk) 22:33, 31 May 2015 (UTC)

I know I've helped you simplify a lot of articles in the past by telling you what the complex words and phrases are and what else needs to be done. Now I think it would be good if you learn how to identify those things yourself, so how about this: take the first paragraph and see what words in it are not listed at Wikipedia:Basic English combined wordlist. List those words here, then we can talk about how to address them. You don't have to list proper nouns. You also don't have to list plurals if the singular is in the list.

In the meantime, please keep the discussion here instead of on user talk pages. I am watching this page, so I will see if you post something here. Thanks. --Auntof6 (talk) 09:45, 1 June 2015 (UTC)

I looked at Wikipedia:Basic English combined wordlist; I'm still having a hard time really identifying the complex words in the Anne Braden article. I mentioned earlier that I've got learning conditions that affect my ability to understand certain complex things. And I cannot do this alone. Angela Maureen (talk) 16:37, 1 June 2015 (UTC)

I removed complex words approached, condemned from the Anne Braden article. Are there any other complex words? Is there something else? Angela Maureen (talk) 14:45, 2 June 2015 (UTC)

(talk page stalker) Angela, would you mind if I made some suggestions? I also have a couple of source citations you might find useful. Could you change the word 'supporter' to activist in the first sentence? It's more accurate. Here is the source: Living the Story, Anne Braden. She also wasn't a newspaper worker, she was a reporter or journalist.Anne Braden Papers 1920s-2006 (bulk 1970s-2006), Biography Note also in that last source Carl Braden was a newspaper editor. Both sources can also be used for the Wade case. Also see: Mourning death of lesser-sung heroine of civil rights (perhaps under 'Other pages' section). For some balance there is this 2012 article: A Traitor to Her Race]. It isn't what the title implies, but it does give more information. User:Rus793 (talk) 16:15, 2 June 2015 (UTC)

Hello Angela, I know that simplifying articles is difficult. Personally, I find working with word-lists counterintuitive, but I will not speak against it, if other people have proposed this. After all, English is not my mother tongue, so who am I to criticize? - Anyway, one of the changes that you could do is to not use the word alter (not on the word list), and use change instead. Since my mother tongue is not English, finding synonyms is difficult for me. I found there are two other options: First there is simple English Wiktionary, which has quite a few of these words (and where you can insert a link with prefixing the word with 'wikt:' when you place the link ([[wikt:example|example]]). The second one, is to simply explain what you mean (this is more for concepts and not single words). Also keep in mind that if the explanation is too long, it will bore those who already know.

When I look at your article here, I am a little concerned with sentence length. When copying over content, long sentences are often caused by nesting sentence parts, which results in a nested sentence. When I simplify, I have found it useful to limit myself to one such nested sentence most of the time. It is easy to convert these nested sentences into sentences of their own. As an example look at Man with the iron mask, which is about an unknown prisoner of a French king. Many people have written books about the subject, and movies have also been made about this man. I am sure the story will sound familiar to you. Look the article, and the structure of most sentences. Wherever I could, I tried to extract the nested sentences, so only one was left. I am not saying this is a great example, but it currently has over 50 revisions, which are split between translating new material and simplifying. --Eptalon (talk) 21:27, 2 June 2015 (UTC)

Ep, I only mention the word lists because they are the basis of the simple language we use here. I don't use the lists myself, but they are a good reference for people learning how to simplify.

As for Wiktionary links I discourage them. They make people go to another site to find information. Many words have multiple meanings and Wiktionary can't tell you which meaning is intended in a specific article. If we later get an article for the word/topic, there's no good way to convert the Wiktionary links to article links. It's also too easy to just add a Wiktionary link just because you can't think of a simpler way to say something.

To me, the best options are to use simpler words, link to an article here (if there is a helpful one), or explain the word/phrase. Before you do that, though, you have to be able to tell which words or phrases need simplifying. That is where Angela says she has trouble, so I'm trying to lead her through some steps that could help with that. First, individual words. Later, sentence structure and other things. --Auntof6 (talk) 22:38, 2 June 2015 (UTC)

I converted alter to change; modified the first paragragh. Is there something else needed here? I need help. Angela Maureen (talk) 23:52, 2 June 2015 (UTC)

Yes, you need to find the complex words. I gave you a way to do that above (looking in the word list to see if the words in the first paragraph are there). Is there a reason you don't want to do that or can't do that? --Auntof6 (talk) 00:10, 3 June 2015 (UTC)

Hello Angela, English Wiktionary has a word list, based on 29 million words from TV and movie scripts. The first 1.000 cover roughly 25 of the 29 million words, or 86%; the first 10.000 cover 97%, or 28 of the 29 million. A thesaurus can give you synonyms for words, use Collins thesaurus for example. In the second part ("The Wade case"), you use the word 'wavered', which is likely not on the word list. Using the thesaurus I found 'hesitate' as a synonym, which is fairly common. Given the sentence structure, I would rephrase the sentence, for example: "(..)The B.s had always supported the African American civil rights movement. In 1954, they agreed to buy the house for the W.s.(..)". I don't know if purchase is on the word list, I used buy. Please check; personally I am fine with 'purchase', even if its not as common as buy, it is still fairly common. As you see, one of the big problems with word lists: depending on which one you use, results change. --Eptalon (talk) 08:10, 3 June 2015 (UTC)

I have removed the complex words and shortened sentences. Anything else to be corrected? Angela Maureen (talk) 03:02, 5 June 2015 (UTC)

You have not removed all the complex words. The first step in doing that is to identify the complex words. I gave you one way to do that, but there could be other ways (besides getting someone to tell you what they are). If you know another way, that would probably be fine, but the complex words and phrases need to be identified and taken care of one way or another. There are also a few sentences that could be shortened, and by "shortened" I mean divided into multiple sentences, not just have words removed. --Auntof6 (talk) 04:04, 5 June 2015 (UTC)

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Wikipedia:Basic English combined wordlist did not help at all. I'm gonna have to get somebody else who knows what the complex words are and what long sentences there are. I'm having a really hard time identifying the complexes in Anne Braden. I don't know what else to do. I tried everything here. Angela Maureen (talk) 04:47, 5 June 2015 (UTC)

Nobody is saying it's going to be easy. Are you able to take each word in the article, one at a time, and look to see if it's on that page? I know that would be boring and not fun, but could you do it? We're getting stricter about making sure articles are properly written, which means being in simple language, having appropriate references, and showing notability, not to mention being truthful and accurate. To write articles here, you have to be able to do those things. YOU have to be able to do it, especially because you write so many articles. The rest of us can help you only so far. If you can't, then maybe you'd like to stick to doing other things here, like reverting vandalism.

I know it probably seems unfair that we're asking you to do more than you used to do. We're being stricter with all articles, not just yours, so that our articles are better quality and make the Wiki better. Did you know that there have been times when people wanted to shut down Simple English Wikipedia? This Wiki is advertised as having articles in simple language. If we don't stick to that, there's no reason for us to exist. That is why it's so important. --Auntof6 (talk) 05:31, 5 June 2015 (UTC)

Simplifying further

Hello Angela, you asked me to help you identify the complex passages. Note that my mother tongue is not English, so I can only point out the sections that I find difficult to understand; I leave re-formulating those to others:

• ... Even as the postwar labor movement splintered and grew less militant, civil rights causes heated up. -> You speak about a labor movement, and about civil rights, in the same sentence. If it is not important that both processes happened at the same time, make two sentences.
• ...led a hospital desegregation drive... -> You will likely have to rephrase/explain that. I have no idea what a desegregation drive could be.
• ...She endured her first arrest ... - That whole sentence is difficult to understand. Perhaps rephrase that In 1951, she led a delegation, who wanted to march to M. In another sentence mention, that during that march, she was arrested...
• ...knew the B.s by association -> What does by association mean? - Would It not be enough to say the W's, knew the B's?
• ...Upon discovering that... -> When they discovered that ...
• ...The investigation turned from segregationist violence.. -> Could you perhaps explain the term segregationist? - You also use it later on, so explaining would certainly help.
• ...Segregationists charged that -> According to segregationists, Communists had bombed...
• In the section "Life" you probably mean Anne Braden. Please say so, as it could also be her husband. (Just for clarity).

And no, I did not use a word list. The two words you will likely need to check are "splinter", and "ordeal". I understand those, but I speak English pretty well. In my opinion, fixing the issues I pointed out above is more important than checking if all the words are part of a word list. Eptalon (talk) 07:30, 5 June 2015 (UTC)

Use a thesaurus to find possible synonyms, that may be more common. I think there's a link to one in the section above. Note that any other will also do the job. --Eptalon (talk) 07:38, 5 June 2015 (UTC)

I've shortened sentences even further. I also changed complexes in certain sentences. Something else? Angela Maureen (talk) 08:09, 6 June 2015 (UTC)

Looks a lot better now, thank you for your work. I listed the points I had above, these have been addressed. Are there any other passages that are difficult to understand?--Eptalon (talk) 10:38, 6 June 2015 (UTC)

Hey Auntof6: It looks like the article may go back to mainspace. Do you agree? Angela Maureen (talk) 14:55, 6 June 2015 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but I still don't think it's ready. There are still a lot of complex words and phrases, and the sentence structure needs to be simplified. In the first paragraph under early activism alone, these words should be addressed: fellow, mainstream, postwar, militant, heated up. I don't have time right now to list the detail for the rest of the article. --Auntof6 (talk) 16:28, 6 June 2015 (UTC)

I linked mainstream and fellow, changed militant to activist, took out postwar. Something else now? Angela Maureen (talk) 22:48, 6 June 2015 (UTC)

The link for mainstream is good. The article fellow isn't the meaning intended in the article, so remove that link and address that word some other way. Militant doesn't mean activist. The links added for fellow and militant make it look like you don't understand the meaning, which you have to understand when you simplify. By taking out "postwar", you remove an important piece of the meaning: you need to keep something there to keep that meaning.

There are still many other things in the rest of the article that also need simplifying. I gave you those few just as an example. I don't want to do the work for you, though: I'd still like to figure out for yourself what needs simplifying so that you don't need to depend on others to find it for you. You have never commented on the ways I've suggested that could help you with that. Do you have an idea of how I could do that? --Auntof6 (talk) 00:07, 7 June 2015 (UTC)

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I couldn't find another way to address fellow, so I took it out. I returned postwar back to its sentence area. Finding other actual complexes could take a long time. Angela Maureen (talk) 01:14, 7 June 2015 (UTC)

Taking out fellow is OK in this case. Postwar will still need to be taken care of.

You know, it's OK if it takes you a long time to work on this article. There is no deadline for it, plus it has more text than the ones you usually work on. It takes some time and effort to learn how to do the kind of writing that's required here. I know I'm hard on you sometimes, but I admire the fact that you stick with doing the work even when it's hard for you. --Auntof6 (talk) 02:44, 7 June 2015 (UTC)

I linked indicted. Trying to find the link for postwar. Angela Maureen (talk) 14:55, 8 June 2015 (UTC)

I was bold, and rephrased it to After the war, is that what you intended to say? --Eptalon (talk) 16:27, 8 June 2015 (UTC)

I think this article should be ready to return to mainspace. I don't see any more complex words now. Angela Maureen (talk) 17:37, 8 June 2015 (UTC)

Angela, I gave you those few examples just from one paragraph. There are still other complex words, and sentences that should be simplified. I don't have time right now to give you any detail. It takes time to do this process, so please don't be in a hurry. --Auntof6 (talk) 17:57, 8 June 2015 (UTC)

Simplifying

The Wade case
Angela, I'll give you some ideas of how to simplify some of this article. Every editor will have their own ideas of exactly how to simplify so take this as a suggestion and example:

Anne Braden is probably best known for an incident in 1954. The Wade family asked the Bradens for help. Andrew Wade was an African American who wanted to buy a house in white suburban Louisville, Kentucky. Because of Jim Crow housing practices, the Wades had been unsuccessful for months to buy a home on their own. The Bradens agreed to buy the house and resell it to the Wades. On May 15, 1954, Andrew Wade and his wife Charlotte spent their first night in their new home. When white neighbors discovered that blacks had moved in, they burned a cross in front of the house. They shot out windows. A few days later, a stone with a racial epithet was thrown through a window. The milkman would not deliver milk. Also someone cancelled their newspaper subscription. White friends began staying in the house to guard against further violence. After a few weeks, the incidents quieted down. However, just after midnight on June 27, 1954 a bomb went off in the house. It was placed under the room the Wade's 2-year-old daughter slept in. Nobody was home at the time.

The Bradens and five other whites were charged with sedition. They were accused of trying to start a race war. They were even accused of blowing up the house themselves in a plot to overthrow the government of Kentucky. This happened during the time of McCarthyism. Anyone could be accused of being a communist and many were. Branded a communist troublemaker Carl Braden spent eight months in prison. The Supreme Court handed down a ruling a year later in a Pennsylvania case. It said sedition was a federal crime, not a state offense. Carl Braden's state conviction was reversed. The charges were dropped against the other defendants. The Wades moved back to Louisville.

References

Again, these are just meant as examples of how I'd do it. BTW, the two Rick Howlett articles are different pieces. User:Rus793 (talk) 19:37, 8 June 2015 (UTC)

@Auntof6: I was just getting ready to answer you when the question disappeared. Yes, I know exactly which source mentioned the milkman and I'll cite it. While the article started out as a transwikied page, I don't see any reason ours can't be better than the original. User:Rus793 (talk) 03:42, 9 June 2015 (UTC)

I agree. I just did some simplifying myself. Let me know if you have any questions about what I did. --Auntof6 (talk) 03:43, 9 June 2015 (UTC)

Article should be ready now

This article should be ready, I think. Angela Maureen (talk) 20:11, 8 June 2015 (UTC)

Is the article ready to be placed back in main space? Angela Maureen (talk) 15:10, 13 June 2015 (UTC)

I don't see any reason why not; note that red-links are not an issue, as these are independent of this article. --Eptalon (talk) 17:55, 13 June 2015 (UTC)

change of word

Delegation was changed to group, blacks was changed to black people, reversed was changed to cancelled. For what reason were the terms changed to others? Angela Maureen (talk) 04:07, 9 June 2015 (UTC)

Angela, you ask that a lot. Any time words are changed like that, it's because the new words are simpler. Did you have some other concern about these changes? --Auntof6 (talk) 05:04, 9 June 2015 (UTC)