User talk:Osiris/July 2013

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Archive 20

File maintenance

Could you unprotect this list of pages for about 5 minutes so I can zip through and remove the dead links to a file in issue 9 of Simple News. 4 pages in total - should take about 3 minutes. --Creol(talk) 17:15, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

And done. --Creol(talk) 17:21, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

PGA (Shabbat)

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- StevenJ81 (talk)

Golden Award!

Goldenwiki 2.png
For all your hard work, you need an award. But why did you increased my block time? Anyway, Cheers. :) to Aaqib 15:46, 3 July 2013 (UTC)

Thank you. I did not adjust your block time at all. I disabled your access to your talk page, since you were removing the block template. Osiris (talk) 20:47, 3 July 2013 (UTC)
Osiris, what would you say if I was a kid? --Aaqib 22:01, 3 July 2013 (UTC)
I would say that you've already asked this question on several other talk pages, and that if you have a more specific question that's of any relevance to Wikipedia you should ask that instead. I have a lot of work to do. Osiris (talk) 22:03, 3 July 2013 (UTC)
OOPS! --Aaqib 22:04, 3 July 2013 (UTC)
Ok, now I have one, what is a flood flag? --Aaqib 22:05, 3 July 2013 (UTC)
Wikipedia:Flood flag. Osiris (talk) 22:08, 3 July 2013 (UTC)

Article feedback

I created Dionibel Rodríguez Rodríguez and José Martínez Morote from drafts on my English Wikipedia user space. I attempted to simplify them. Can you look at them and give me any feedback on how well I did simplifying them? --LauraHale (talk) 08:50, 4 July 2013 (UTC)

Just read through the first one, and it's pretty simple. I made a few small changes, but there's not much more I can suggest. Osiris (talk) 09:17, 4 July 2013 (UTC)
The second one is a bit more difficult, but it's still pretty simple. I changed a few of the words around in this one, I hope you don't mind. I think it's more important to make the intended meaning clear than it is to use the simplest words. So "going" in "going fast with a ball" is to me more difficult than if you had just written "running". Does that make sense? Osiris (talk) 09:33, 4 July 2013 (UTC)
They are fine and I get the point. I am hoping that the chances these articles will be edited by non-English speakers is higher than they would be on English Wikipedia. I am just not always confident that I simplifying things correctly. I have tried to say "finished first" or second or third instead of "won a gold medal" because that seemed simpler. If you see room for improvement in my simple writing, please let me know and I will try to work on that. :) --LauraHale (talk) 16:13, 4 July 2013 (UTC)
Yes, "finished first" is probably better. No problem, I will keep an eye open. Osiris (talk) 21:08, 4 July 2013 (UTC)

Shulchan Aruch

Er ... um ... Thank you! <sheepish grin> (I ought to be able to remember stuff like that.) StevenJ81 (talk) 13:12, 4 July 2013 (UTC)

No worries, Steven. I haven't forgotten about Shabbat. Osiris (talk) 21:11, 4 July 2013 (UTC)


For my last day on Wikipedia, sorry for the disruption --Aaqib 13:38, 4 July 2013 (UTC)

Maybe in a year's time when you're a bit more mature, we'll be able to work together properly. Osiris (talk) 21:13, 4 July 2013 (UTC)

Merging list of religions

Hooray! I know this took some doing! --Auntof6 (talk) 03:32, 6 July 2013 (UTC)

:) Yes, it wasn't fun. I carefully worked through both lists to make sure none were lost, but I threw in the towel when I got down to the new-age religions. Just replaced that section with the bigger version. Osiris (talk) 03:36, 6 July 2013 (UTC)


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Disambiguating with popups

Be aware, when you disambiguate with the popups, it will change every link to the dab page to the same thing, whether or not that's what you want. For example, if you use that function on a sentence like this:

The French speak mostly French.

...both links will change to the same thing. You'd have to manually fix one of them. --Auntof6 (talk) 22:46, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

Oh okay. That's a little annoying. Thanks for telling me. Osiris (talk) 00:51, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

Have you noticed a problem with this lately? The last couple of days or so, it doesn't seem to work every time. --Auntof6 (talk) 10:16, 11 July 2013 (UTC)

I haven't gotten into using it much yet to tell you the truth. I'll do so over the next few days and let you know whether I hit any glitches. Of course I'll have no idea how to fix them if I do though... Osiris (talk) 10:20, 11 July 2013 (UTC)

Upstaging redirected to Blocking?

I'm wondering about this change. I think we lose the information about upstaging -- did you think that wasn't a worthwhile article, or maybe a dicdef? The Blocking article doesn't have anything about upstaging -- "up-stage" as used in that article doesn't mean the same thing. --Auntof6 (talk) 07:45, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

It was a pretty uselss article. It was muddled in its scope: the second and third paragraphs were vaguely talking about the word in terms of the positioning of actors (forcing someone to turn away from the audience), whereas the other three paragraphs were about taking attention away from someone. Those three paragraphs were basically a definition and had very little value as an encyclopaedic topic. So I took what was the most useful part, and turned it into an article. And I've just finished summarising the definition parts on Wiktionary. It was previously mentioned here, but it was never done. Osiris (talk) 08:23, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

PGA (Shabbat)

Thanks for your continued help on this. I'd really like to make this happen; if nothing else, we have not had a GA or VGA promotion here for nearly a year!

I've been discussing this with you at the PGA page, and with Eptalon at Talk:Shabbat. I have a sense that you are both supportive. Is that sufficient for promotion, or do I have to solicit some other people? And if so, should I do that at WP:Simple talk, or go to editors' own talk pages? I appreciate your advice. StevenJ81 (talk) 17:04, 9 July 2013 (UTC)

No, I think that mine and Eptalon's reviews will be sufficient, unless somebody else objects. I'll state my support on the PGA page. If nobody says anything within a few days or something I'll promote it. Osiris (talk) 02:16, 10 July 2013 (UTC)

Thank you

Hi there, I happened to be reading the Simple English Wikipedia and watching your changes early this morning. I'd just like to express my appreciation for your time (well) spent. You are a great editor, a great person, and you benefit many people (often thanklessly). Thank you, Osiris.

- A visitor

Wow! Thank you for the kind words! You're welcome here any time! Face-tongue.svg Osiris (talk) 06:09, 10 July 2013 (UTC)

Garden of the Missing Soldiers

Hi. the real name in Hebrew is: Garden of the Missing's, and its commemoration begins in the year 1914 that still there is no an Israeli Army. the name list in the garden is the names list of the fallen wall in the garden is refers also to those who are not was soldiers. פארוק (talk) 06:05, 11 July 2013 (UTC)

Whatever you want to name it is fine with me. Google hits prefer Garden of the Missing Soldiers, but I really don't care. Just make sure you update the interwikis. Osiris (talk) 06:51, 11 July 2013 (UTC)
It is not so really matter, but the official name in English is the name you are replacing. and Google have a mistake. פארוק (talk) 14:29, 11 July 2013 (UTC)
en uses "Garden of the Missing in Action", and so does one of the two references (the stamp one). "The Missing" is not clear in English. "Missing" might be a good direct translation of נעדרים‎, but in Hebrew I wouldn't be surprised if everyone knows that in the context of soldiers, "Missing" means "Missing in Action". I think you should use either "Missing Soldiers" or "Missing in Action"—your choice. StevenJ81 (talk) 14:51, 11 July 2013 (UTC)
in Hebrew: גן הנעדרים - Garden of the Missing's - refers to all the fighters and officers whose burial place is unknown. פארוק (talk) 17:12, 11 July 2013 (UTC)
I take your point. I see two different issues here:
  1. Clearly, הנעדרים refers to soldiers whose burial place is unknown. (The reason their memorial day is 7 Adar is because this is the anniversary of the death of Moses, whose burial place is unknown.) For that reason, "Missing in Action" is simply not correct, and the name in enwiki needs to be changed. So I think I'll do that in the next day or so.
  2. On the other hand, the use of the words "Missing" and "Missings" is a problem in English. I took a quick look in five different places (English Wiktionary, Simple Wiktionary, Merriam-Webster, Oxford and and could not find "missing" defined as a noun anywhere. This suggests that "missing" by itself is serving as an adjective, even if the word it is modifying is, well, missing. If it is an adjective, it would never be "missings", only "missing".
And even if you assume "missing" is a noun, it is what we call an "uncountable noun", meaning the word can refer to either an individual or a group. That kind of noun is never formed into a plural like "missings".
So if you are really uncomfortable with "... Missing Soldiers", then use "Garden of the Missing", without an "s". But since "Garden of the Missing Soldiers" gets a high number of Google hits, I would suggest saying something like

The Garden of the Missing (Hebrew: גן הנעדרים‎‎, Gan HaNe'edarim), sometimes also called the Garden of the Missing Soldiers, ...

This way, you give it the right name, but also don't confuse people looking for the other name. StevenJ81 (talk) 17:50, 11 July 2013 (UTC)
The garden is also a temporary memorial for the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier of Israel until he will move to the new site in the National Memorial Hall in the entrance to the National Military and Police cemetery in Mount Herzl. פארוק (talk) 18:09, 11 July 2013 (UTC)
I don't think that matters much, especially because it is temporary. StevenJ81 (talk) 18:21, 11 July 2013 (UTC)

Osiris and Farouk, on doing a little more research into the matter in Hebrew and English, I am finding the following:

  • There is very little original in English from reliable sources. That said, the one thing that might possibly be considered somewhat reliable, the page on the stamp from the Israel Postal Authority, does use "Garden of the Missing Soldiers".
  • You often see "Garden of the Missing Soldiers", and rarely "Garden of the Missing in Action", through Google, but it's not at all clear those aren't just derivative or inferred.
  • Based on the Hebrew, the full formal name is "Garden of the Missing [collective/plural] for the fallen of Israel whose burial place is unknown". The context, and the background information in Hebrew, shows that this is not really about soldiers missing in action (MIAs) per se, but about soldiers who are missing and known or presumed dead.
  • For the above reason, I think "Garden of the Soldiers Missing in Action" as per enwiki is flat-out incorrect, and I will undertake to fix that over there.
  • "Missing Soldiers" is a little misleading in this context. In English, that implies MIAs. I don't actually think that is the best title, though its use in various English-language settings means it should probably be mentioned here as an alias.
  • Although Israel's Tomb of the Unknowns is located here for now, that is clearly not the main purpose of Gan HaNe'edarim, so that shouldn't really influence the name we use here.

I propose we go with what I wrote above. I'll then clean up the article on both wikis to make sure the context is quite clear.

Is that agreeable to both of you? Note: Even if you two agree, this might take a day or two to do, so please be patient. StevenJ81 (talk) 19:19, 11 July 2013 (UTC)

Thanks, Steven. Like I said, I don't mind what you call it since I've never heard of it. Given that there is such a lack of translations going on, even Gan HaNe'edarim might be a good idea (although for Simple English Wikipedia it's best to find an English equivalent). And the postage stamp translation is probably the best one. If that's okay with Faroukh. Osiris (talk) 04:04, 12 July 2013 (UTC)
Not the the Tomb of the Unknowns ! - only a Temporary Monument that ceremony in 7 Adar to the Missing in action it is also refers to the unknown soldiers that have no other memorial in israel. פארוק (talk) 04:23, 12 July 2013 (UTC)
Ok. i move it to "Gan HaNe'edarim" in the hebrew name. פארוק (talk) 19:59, 14 July 2013 (UTC)


Please see here. Goblin 10:29, 12 July 2013 (UTC) I ♥ TCN7JM!

Commodore Nutt

Hellp! I hope you're well. I've sent the above article to Propsed Good Articles. Please take a look. I welcome your comments and criticism! Thank you. Oregonian2012 (talk) 00:03, 18 July 2013 (UTC)

Excellent! I'll take a look a little later today. Osiris (talk) 10:28, 18 July 2013 (UTC)

Broken templates

Hi Osiris, see Simple talk - I appear to have broken lots of templates. Help! --Peterdownunder (talk) 04:19, 23 July 2013 (UTC)

I restored the pre-Lua versions on most of them, so those should work okay now. I'm going through them individually to see whether there are any leftover conflicts. Osiris (talk) 04:23, 23 July 2013 (UTC)
I cannot believe you can fix in a minute what has been driving me mad for two hours! Not knowing what was broken did not help either.--Peterdownunder (talk) 04:26, 23 July 2013 (UTC)
You might be amused to see that I was trying to import the page on Neville Bonner, and stupidly ticked on the import template button. Normally I only bring over templates when necessary. A Liberal senator causing me grief and embarrassment :)--Peterdownunder (talk) 04:32, 23 July 2013 (UTC)
:) A lot of the major templates on enwiki like {{cite book}} and {{authority control}} are using Lua now and require corresponding Module pages, which we haven't bothered with yet. So I just restored to the earlier versions. It also looks like that server error caused your imports to be duplicated - the edits were imported twice on each page, and the identical revisions are inseparable. Tried deleting and restoring just one of your imports on {{Age}} but it won't allow me to separate them. For example, the two edits by Magioladitis on that template are the same edit, but something (probably the server lapse) has caused the software not to recognise them as the same. I don't know how to fix that except to delete the revisions so they're not part of the history.. Osiris (talk) 04:35, 23 July 2013 (UTC)

So, is there a take-away from this? Do we all need to check for use of Lua before importing templates? How would we do that? --Auntof6 (talk) 05:11, 23 July 2013 (UTC)

Well, in this case, Peter just accidentally ticked a box that he normally wouldn't tick. I wouldn't advise using import for any page that already exists. Mostly because you don't know what changes will be made to the code, but also because it will cause chronology conflicts in the revision history (the technical details of which are described under Wikipedia:Importers#Common issues). For new templates it's fine because they're not in use anywhere and you can fix up any compatability issues after you've imported. For those that already exist, though, I always use copy and paste instead. Osiris (talk) 05:17, 23 July 2013 (UTC)
You can see whether the template is using a Lua script by searching the code for {{#invoke: which will obviously be followed by the Module: page it relies on. Osiris (talk) 05:27, 23 July 2013 (UTC)
Peter promises never to import again...well he will be much more careful...and did I say thanks. --Peterdownunder (talk) 07:48, 23 July 2013 (UTC)
Yes ;) It was no problem. Osiris (talk) 09:54, 23 July 2013 (UTC)

Japanese music groups

I did some work on Back Number to try to keep it, although being a Japanese band it is very difficult to establish notability. (In this case the sources seem to indicate they had a #4 album). This raises an interesting point on western bias on Wikipedia. I was watching a WMF video which looked at this among other problems. I am going to try to see what we can do to "save" some of these badly written and normally QD'd pages.--Peterdownunder (talk) 07:48, 23 July 2013 (UTC)

Another issue

Related to the above, the video talked about editor retention. The evidence seems to be that you need to get at least 6 edits from an editor to get them involved. Reverting and deleting pages alienates new users. There are a couple of things we can do. First, the "how to pages" that we worked on need to be brought into use for new editors. Secondly en have a new experimental module for new editors called Getting Started. Something similar could be a good feature to have here.--Peterdownunder (talk) 07:48, 23 July 2013 (UTC)

Oh, wow! That's a cool feature. We could use something like that. We have had a few new users recently asking what they can do to help. I did add WP:WIZARD to the MediaWiki page for redlinks, so that each time you visit a page that doesn't exist it provides a link to the wizard.. but it's not very prominent and I haven't linked it in many other places. I've only seen a handful of pages created from it and they were all abandoned. Osiris (talk) 09:57, 23 July 2013 (UTC)

I was here before.

I was just requesting a simple correction be made! :-) Also, for the Moons of Saturn template at the bottom of the page, can you update it so it includes the moon Aegaeon? Thanks! Add: A new section between "Co-orbitals" and "Inner large". The section should be named "G Ring" and contain the moon. Thanks! — Preceding unsigned comment added by (talkcontribs) 04:13, 24 July 2013 (UTC)

 Done. Thanks for spotting that error. Osiris (talk) 04:16, 24 July 2013 (UTC)

We need to have more people who see the minor things... :-) — Preceding unsigned comment added by (talkcontribs) 04:19, 24 July 2013 (UTC)


What is eswiki and itwiki ? . פארוק (talk) 05:29, 25 July 2013 (UTC)

The Spanish and Italian Wikipedias. I provided a link to them in the comment... Osiris (talk) 05:33, 25 July 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for being extra thorough, as usual

You really put in the extra time and effort to make clear to Faroukh why that Tzfat Kabbalah article was deleted. I has seen that he'd created all of the other instances on other wikis but hadn't noticed that others had been deleted too. I really appreciate your attention to detail. Gotanda (talk) 11:24, 25 July 2013 (UTC)

No problem! :) Osiris (talk) 11:35, 25 July 2013 (UTC)


Hi Osiris, I was looking at those changes, and the looked very similar to the disney vandal who was blocked again yesterday. Though IP info was different. Could be worth keeping an eye on all children's TV edits by IPs over the next few days.--Peterdownunder (talk) 02:05, 26 July 2013 (UTC)

Okay, I'll do that. I guess you can block the IP if you want. I would do it, but I don't really know the history behind the Disney vandal. Osiris (talk) 02:06, 26 July 2013 (UTC)
The user is usually using a dynamic IP, so blocking does not always make much difference. And it could be just another disney obsessed young person.--Peterdownunder (talk) 04:39, 26 July 2013 (UTC)
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(The) Holocaust

Hi, Osiris.

A lot of us are pretty unhappy with the corresponding move over at en:Holocaust, and I'd guess another RfM to reverse it will formally start shortly, unless consensus gets there without a formal RfM. A lot of people have made the the point, based on a variety of evidence, that this does, in fact, meet en:WP:THE. (Summary argument: holocaust remains a word in ordinary use. The Holocaust represents the specific event.) A request, or favor, if I may: I won't kick up a fuss here and now on this, but if enwiki reverses the move, can we do that as well, without a whole big to-do?

Thanks. StevenJ81 (talk) 13:40, 29 July 2013 (UTC)

You can move it whichever way you want, I was really just trying to match it up with the other entries in Wikidata - plus get rid of that fork page [1] that had a lot of unsourced claims in it but was basically about the word being used as an alternative term for genocide (except for a brief reference to sacrifices in the opener). I'll move it back tomorrow if somebody else doesn't beat me to it. I was just about to go to bed, and I have to switch it around with the fork page so that revision histories don't get lost. Osiris (talk) 13:56, 29 July 2013 (UTC)
Thanks for your response. By all means go to bed; naturally, I am just signing in for the morning. (;-) (wink from a guy wearing a yarmulke/kippa)
Am I reading this correctly? There was a page called The Holocaust. There was a fork page called The Holocaust. Really? How completely bizarre! We can set up a dab page if we need to, but we'll do it in a clear, logical way.
Thanks for your help!
StevenJ81 (talk) 14:04, 29 July 2013 (UTC)
No problem. I think I was probably being lazy just then. It only took two minutes... ;) Osiris (talk) 14:07, 29 July 2013 (UTC)


Hi Osiris and thanks for your response and help. I'd like to know:

  1. How important are the sources on the wiki? I mean how long an unsourced article can survive here? In case of unsourced, do you ask for sources tagging it to unsourced or speedily delete it?
  2. In Shaheed-e-Mohabbat Boota Singh, there is category "Punjabi language movies" but when I get to the edit mode I didn't found this category but the others. From where it comes into article? From any template? And why it's not shown in edit mode? And secondly, shouldn't it be "Punjabi-language movies" instead of "Punjabi language movies"?

Asked more than one things plz don't miss any while answering. Thanks. --Itar buttar (talk) 08:14, 30 July 2013 (UTC)

I will butt in and answer the second question. After you asked me about Punjabi language movies, I looked to see how many we already had articles on. I changed the coding in the template on Shaheed-e-Mohabbat Boota Singh so that the category would automatically appear. If you link the language name in the template, then it doesn't add the category. The template adds the category even though the category hasn't really been defined yet. As I mentioned in my reply to you on my talk page, the category shouldn't be defined until there are at least three pages to put in it.
I see your point about having a hyphen in the category name, but here we don't use them for this. You can see the categories in Category:Movies by language for examples. --Auntof6 (talk) 08:19, 30 July 2013 (UTC)

Sources are good to see, but they are not essential for an article to be kept. An article will only be deleted on sourcing requirements if the community is unable to find any reliable sources for it - WP:V. A claim that has no source to back it up will usually be tagged first, removed later. Extraordinary claims or controversial claims about living people may be removed immediately. Auntof6 has answered the second question (the category is added automatically by the infobox template). Osiris (talk) 09:15, 30 July 2013 (UTC)

If I may add:
  • We don't have to see sources at all if it is something everybody knows, like "Paris is the capital of France". (In Wikipedia language, "The sky is blue.")
  • We probably want to see a source if it is not something everybody knows. If you do not give a source for something like this, it could be tagged. But people will give you a lot of time to fix it before it is removed.
  • As Osiris said: You must give a source if it is something people do not agree about.
If that is about someone who is alive, it will probably be removed right away.
If it is something else, it may be tagged. You may have a little time to fix it, but it will probably be removed if you don't.
Hope that helps. StevenJ81 (talk) 12:51, 30 July 2013 (UTC)