Talk:Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez

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GA comments[change source]

Will try and go through this in some detail this week, but looks good.

  • One thing that could be expanded is the asteroid being named after her. It article reads as if the asteroid was named "Sandy". When I checked the references it told the story of how and why - I think it needs to be in our article, as I found it a fascinating little snippet.Peterdownunder (talk) 08:16, 24 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I think it is good where it is; it tells me that she was not your average high school student. Peterdownunder (talk) 06:00, 25 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Early life - sophomore and intern are both terms used mainly in the US, for non-US readers like me they would need a link to explain them. Also, intern is spelled incorrectly in one spot.
  • Early career - the article says they moved from the Bronx, then its says she had to go to work as a waitress to try and help her mother in the Bronx - did they move back? Perhaps the foreclosure needs a one sentence explanation too. Peterdownunder (talk) 23:53, 24 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Primary reaction - I found this sentence hard to understand "Without campaigning for it, Ocasio-Cortez won the Reform Party primary as a write-in candidate in a neighboring congressional district, with a total vote count of nine". It is not simple enough, and it also relies on an understanding of US expressions. Even the use of the word "primary" is not used in an election context in other countries. In Australia, it mainly refers to schools from Prep to Grade Six. See what you can do to make this easier to understand.Peterdownunder (talk) 00:01, 25 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Media coverage - This sentence is not simple as it has its verb at the end "In January 2019 the documentary Knock Down the House, which focused on four female Democrats in the 2018 midterms who were not career politicians, including Ocasio-Cortez, Amy Vilela, Cori Bush, and Paula Jean Swearengin, premiered."Peterdownunder (talk) 00:06, 25 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Simplicity[change source]

When I have done some scoring on the pages to check for readability, it is currently scoring way too high. To give some examples, it is about 52 on the Flesch test, I would expect to see over 65 for any article, and close to 80 for GA/VGA. It has a reading grade level of Grade 11.5, we really need it to sit around Grade 8 maximum. The FOG score is 11.5 (about Wall Street Journal level) but should aim for 8 (Reader's Digest). These scores will be be skewed because of the large number of names, especially non simple names like Ocasio-Cortez. Simplifying names is not an option obviously, and we can make allowances for that, but we do need to look at simplifying everything else. This is a big project. This Wikipedia should be able to have an accessible article on this woman, so we may have to get to work to achieve it. I'll take it as a challenge :) . For the moment, I will keep reviewing as above, to make sure we have everything in place, then we can start trying to make it simpler. Peterdownunder (talk) 10:32, 25 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@TDKR Chicago 101: - There is normally a quick reading level checker on Wikipedia, but there must be a lag time for new articles, because I have not been able to get this to show up. See: Readability of Wikipedia. The other thing I do, is use the Seamonkey browser, with a Simple English dictionary loaded as a add-on. This then highlights as spelling mistakes all the words not in the dictionary. I have been using this today, but I don't have any quick or easy answers yet.Peterdownunder (talk) 03:41, 26 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I just did an experiment with looking at the Green Deal section. By removing her name, it raised Flesh score 4 points. This shows some of the skewing caused. Still thinking about better ways to make it simple.Peterdownunder (talk) 23:20, 27 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I think a small part of what may make some of this so complicated may be some of its direct quotes. I don't really know how the balancing act would work, since it would be bad to misquote someone, but on the other hand it still needs to be simplified. For instance, "the most significant loss for a Democratic incumbent in more than a decade, and one that will reverberate across the party and the country" (under Primary victory and reaction). Clearly, "reverberate" is a problematic word for a simple English article. This, and several other quotes like it, don't make this a particularly easy read. I think indirect quotes may help, or perhaps quoting the simpler bits while paraphrasing the more complicated bits? Just an idea. ~Junedude433talk 02:54, 28 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Good suggestion.Peterdownunder (talk) 03:33, 28 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Perhaps something (looking at the example above) to read like this: "the most significant loss...in more than a decade" and one that will be felt "...across the party and the country." Peterdownunder (talk) 03:36, 28 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
In general, it looks more simplified now. The only other concerns would be some of the specific terms used in some of the quotes, such as "no-brainer" or "stunt". Those are terms that non-native speakers would be likely to know. I only found those two skimming through the article, although I'm sure there are more. Maybe a Wiktionary link could work for those, if there isn't already an article for them. I don't think they should be removed from the quotes though. ~Junedude433talk 23:31, 29 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@TDKR Chicago 101:

  • I'm not sure how to better phrase this sentence, but the sentence about her comments on her internship with Ted Kennedy I think needs to be revised. One interpretation I had (strictly based on grammar) was that the people coming to her office to talk about ICE as if she was the cause of the capture. I think a slight revision better establishing the fact that she was the only Spanish speaker as the cause of people coming to her directly would be useful. It's a minor thing, but the sentence is a bit long anyway, and if I can interpret it differently, I'm sure a non-native speaker could interpret it that way as well.
  • Another issue is the phrase "big money," which I first noticed in a quote in the first paragraph of the 2018 Election section. It's a phrase native speakers and political junkies alike know the meaning all too well, but I feel like it could be an unusual phrase for non-native speakers. It literally means "large currency." Interpreted literally, it reads "you can't defeat large dollar bills by using a greater quantity of dollar bills." I think there would need to be an explanation of what "big [noun]" means. Sadly, there isn't any Wikipedia article nor a Wiktionary entry for it, so it would need to be created from scratch. I'm sure there are other fairly small problems, but I haven't done an extremely in-depth look quite yet. I think this article is getting extremely close to GA or even VGA status. ~Junedude433talk 16:37, 2 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Junedude433: Great insight and thank you for your work on this article! I'll definitely work on your given suggestions later today or early tomorrow! --TDKR Chicago 101 (talk) 20:17, 2 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

  • @TDKR Chicago 101: I think some of the remaining issues are related to the tendency to use phrases such as "big money." I found several other phrases that are as complicated. They probably flew under the radar since the individual words in that phrase might be simple English, but the phrase itself is more political and carries a different meaning. Politicians tend to engage in doublespeak, which is a particular style of speech that is designed to be simultaneously specific and vague, and they frequently use idioms and expressions that take on a different meaning; while Ocasio-Cortez is usually more direct, she still isn't speaking very literally that much. I noticed them mostly in the "Political views" section. Phrases such as "pathway to citizenship," "marching towards progress," "a product of the Bush-era," ("product" is being used figuratively) "takes more of a paramilitary tone," ("takes on" would sound weird to those unfamiliar with what it means, and "tone" could mean a literal aspect of a voice) "trans rights are civil rights are human rights," (linking three different things with "are" is an unusual construction) and I'm sure there are others. The main problem would be that they are all in direct quotes, which causes complications. I attempted to fix one phrase, which was "child-detention centers" by creating an article for "Immigration detention in the United States." I would suggest finding some article (or creating one!) that is related to the phrase and creating a section that either uses that phrase or explains it. "Pathway to citizen" could be linked to a not-yet-created section on Citizenship in the United States called "Ways to become a citizen," or more specifically under a section for "Naturalized citizenship". If you don't want to mess with the direct quotes - and I would certainly understand why that may be a problem - then the only workaround would be linking phrases to other articles that will explain them in-depth. Alternatively, you could continue ta add notes like what you did with "big money," but I think that may interrupt the flow of the article. Also, creating new sections on other articles in order to explain things would be beneficial since it would add significantly more content on the wiki, albeit it would require more time and energy. Then again, you've never been the type of person to shy away from a large task. ~Junedude433talk 18:47, 6 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Readability as of June 3 2020[change source]

Looked at the page today against a variety of tests:

  • The Flesch-Kincaid reading ease score is 49 - (50.0–30.0 College level -Difficult to read) really needs to be 70 or higher
  • The Flesch-Kincaid grade level is 11.1th grade - aim for 8th grade
  • The Gunning Fog index is 11.1 - really needs to be 8-10
  • The Coleman-Liau index is 10.9 - this is the grade level, needs to be 8
  • The SMOG index is 10.5 - SMOG stands for Simple Measure of Gobbledygook, and gives a grade score, aim for 8
  • The automated readability index is 9.3 - also a grade level score, should be 8

While there are problems with all automated tests of readability, this is still showing that the page is not meeting the level needed to be in Simple English. I will look at some other ways of calculating, to see how much the use of names is skewing the calculations. Peterdownunder (talk) 22:26, 2 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Here are the scores with the "names" removed from the equations. The automated readability score is looking good - this score is based on a variety of factors.

  • The Flesch-Kincaid reading ease score is 55.8 (0 to 100, higher is best)
  • The Flesch-Kincaid grade level is 10th grade
  • The Gunning Fog index is 10.9 (average is 12, lower is best)
  • The Coleman-Liau index is 10.2
  • The SMOG index is 9.7
  • The automated readability index is 8.5

Will look again later.Peterdownunder (talk) 23:43, 2 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Review[change source]

Just a few comments up to (but not including) the 2018 campaign section, with the GA nomination in mind:

  • She beat Democratic Caucus Chair Joe Crowley in what was seen as the biggest upset victory in recent American political history. - Make this two sentences and simplify the latter part of the sentence.
  • She later won the general election, beating Republican nominee Anthony Pappas in November 2018. - I would rephrase to start the sentence with In November 2018....
  • At age 29, she became the youngest woman ever become a member of the United States Congress. - to become.
  • She has become well known for her use of social media. - She is, instead of has become. Also, source?
  • majored - Is this simple?
  • activist - Is this simple?
  • volunteered - Is this simple?
  • She was an activist, volunteered for Bernie Sanders's first presidential campaign and worked part-time as a waitress and bartender before running for Congress in 2018. - The sentence is too long. Split into two or three sentences. Also, sources?
  • federal - Is this simple?
  • 'She is a progressive and supports Medicare for All, a federal jobs guarantee, the Green New Deal,[8] ending the U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement, free public college and trade school, and a 70% marginal tax rate for income above $10 million. - Start a new sentence after Green New Deal.
  • trade school - Is this simple?
  • income - shouldn't this be plural?
  • Also, you've sourced the first few things she supports, but not the others. Any reason why not?
  • Her father was born in the Bronx to a Puerto Rican family, and her mother was born in Puerto Rico. - Split into two sentences.
  • She called her Puerto Rican community united, - Is this simple? Maybe said her PR community was united. In fact, is united simple? Also, the quote after this does not particularly confirm anything about the community being united. I would look at rewriting this passage.
  • apartment - Is this simple?
  • Ocasio-Cortez went to high school in Yorktown Heights, graduating in 2007. - Split into two sentences. (to be honest, in most cases where this does not affect the flow, I would suggest splitting into shorter sentences. This usually make the article a lot easier to read)
  • In high school and college, she was known as "Sandy." - Why? Maybe worth explaining, here.
  • She came in second in the Microbiology category of the Intel International Science and Engineering Fair with a microbiology research project on the effect of antioxidants on the lifespan of the nematode C. elegans. - The sentence is too long. Split and rework. Maybe turn the sentence round the other way? Maybe mention the date?
  • To thank her for her efforts into the project, MIT Lincoln Laboratory named a small asteroid after her. - Turn the sentence round the other way (i.e. start with the second part of the sentence).
  • She became involved in a long legal battle to settle his estate. - Is this simple? I'm sure there is a better way of saying this.
  • She has said that the experience helped her learn how attorneys are corrupt and make themselves rich while their clients, like families, were being ignored - too long. Again, shortening this kind of sentence will greatly improve readability.
  • She said of her time while working for Kennedy, "I was the only Spanish speaker" which was why "people would come to the office and go to her saying that a relative had been caught by ICE" - Again, this is too complex. I would suggest paraphrasing rather than quoting directly.
  • Ocasio-Cortez graduated cum laude from Boston University with a BA in 2011, majoring in international relations and economics - Make into two sentences.
  • After college, Ocasio-Cortez moved back to the Bronx and took a job as a bartender and waitress to help her mother fight foreclosure of their home - Ditto.
  • She later created Brook Avenue Press, a publishing press used to print papers or books that told positive stories about The Bronx. - Ditto. Also, is publishing press simple?
  • In North Dakota she saw others "putting their whole lives and everything that they had on the line for the protection of their community." - Again, is a direct quote efficient here to convey meaning?
  • inspired - Is this simple?
  • One day after she visited North Dakota, she got a phone call from Brand New Congress, which was looking for progressive candidates - Split into two sentences.

As you can see, there are still a number of issues. I will look through the rest of the article in the next few days. I hope this helps! --Yottie =talk= 11:59, 2 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Review (2)[change source]

Below is the second part of the review, focusing on the 2018 campaign section:

  • campaign - Is this simple?
  • Ocasio-Cortez began her campaign in April[37] while working at Flats Fix, a taco restaurant in New York City's Union Square. - Maybe split into two, and start the second sentence with: At the time, she was working...
  • Her campaign was small with Ocasio-Cortez saying that "80% of her campaign worked out of a paper grocery bag hidden behind the eatery's bar". - Full stop after small. New sentence after this. I also think the direct quote is quite complex, albeit a fun quote. You could either paraphrase or explain the quote.
  • campaign buttons - Is this clear/simple enough?
  • She was the first person since 2004 to run against Joe Crowley, the Democratic Caucus Chair, in the primary. - I would rephrase to include that final clause earlier, i.e. ...to run in the primary against Joe Crowley....
  • She did not have much money for the campaign, saying, "You can't really beat big money with more money. You have to beat them with a totally different game." - Full stop after much money and start new sentence.
  • donations - Is this simple?
  • like Bernie Sanders's presidential campaign - The phrasing makes this unclear. Did Bernie's campaign take big donations or not?
  • posters' No need for an apostrophe.
  • Her campaign posters' were inspired from "revolutionary posters from the past. - Try to make this an active sentence (e.g. Revolutionary posters from the past were the inspiration for.... Also, is inspired simple?
  • Ocasio-Cortez was supported by progressive and civil rights groups such as MoveOn,[44] Black Lives Matter,[45] and Democracy for America,[33] and by actress Cynthia Nixon. - Make this into an active voice sentence. Also, link civil rights and is progressive simple?
  • I'll be honest, that first section didn't really say what she based her campaign on. Did she organise rallies/events? I think it would be useful to include some information about her politics here, as the article then skips straight to her winning the primary.
  • Time called her victory "the biggest upset of the 2018 elections so far";[51] CNN made a similar comment. - I would replace the semicolon with a full stop.
  • "the most [biggest] loss for a Democratic incumbent in more than a decade." - I reckon you should drop the most to improve readability.
  • congratulate - Is this simple?
  • Many thought he was going to run against her in the general election with a third party. - I would say many people, as it is simpler.
  • congratulated - see above.
  • longtime congressman and high-ranking party politician - Is this simple?
  • After her primary win, she supported - I would refer to her by name, here, as you have talked about other people in between.
  • congressional district - Is this simple?
  • Ocasio-Cortez was supported by many progressive organizations and politicians, including former President Barack Obama and U.S. Senator Bernie Sanders. Use active voice.
  • ballot - Is this simple?
  • Neither Crowley nor the WFP party campaigned in the election, with both supporting Ocasio-Cortez after her Democratic primary victory - Split into two sentences.
  • Crowley, on the WFP and WEP ballots, won 9,348 votes (6.6%) - For consistency's sake, I would have the percentage first and then the number of votes in brackets (or if you wanted, have all of them the other way round).
  • 2018 midterm elections - I would start a new sentence after this.
  • The first media network to talk about... - I would use that talked, to make it simpler. Adjust subsequent verb accordingly. Or you could start the sentence with The Young Turks. Up to you.
  • nationwide - Is this simple? (maybe in the whole country)
  • rally - Is this simple?
  • In The New Yorker wrote - Drop the in
  • popular - Is this simple?
  • Until she beat incumbent Joe Crowley in the 2018 Democratic primary, Ocasio-Cortez had little coverage - I would start with the last clause, i.e. AOC had little coverage until...
  • coverage - Is this simple?
  • the lack of focus - Is this simple?
  • eventual - Is this simple?
  • The Young Turks have - Has.
  • political critics - Is this simple?
  • Outsider - Is this simple?
  • She was one of the people talked about in the 2018 Michael Moore documentary Fahrenheit 11/9. - Rephrase to use active voice.
  • In an act to embarrass - Is this simple?
  • a video of Ocasio-Cortez's during her college years dancing - I would say dancing during her college years.
  • responded - Is this simple?
  • entry - In this context, is it simple?
  • In January 2019 the documentary Knock Down the House about four female Democrats, without political experience, running for Congress in the 2018 midterms premiered - Too long, make into two sentences.
  • It was released by Netflix on May 1, 2019. - Use active voice.

I will keep going, when I have time. Keep up the good work! --Yottie =talk= 17:09, 2 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

  • @Yottie: Fixed issues addressed in the first and second review. Question about the first review section. You mention to address why her nickname was Sandy during her high school years. I found an article -> [1] that mentions it. However I find that the explanation is a bit complex. Here's the quote: “Sandy” is an established nickname for “Alexandria,” if a relatively uncommon one. (If you’re having trouble hearing the connection, think about the third syllable of “Alexandria.”) Is it important? --TDKR Chicago 101 (talk) 01:12, 4 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Review (3)[change source]

Here's a bit more for you to look through (Tenure and Arrival sections)!

  • swore in - simple?
  • comma before the quote
  • Is the quote simple? (clout? Freshman Democrats? Combined?) Possibly link, or rethink whether it could be paraphrased instead.
  • and passed Nancy Pelosi's number of followers - Is this relevant? If it is, make it a new sentence. If not, remove.
  • congressional district - Simple?
  • She had 2.2 million Instagram[100] and 500,000 followers on Facebook - I would suggest saying Instgram followers. I know it causes a repetition, but the omission makes it more complex.
  • lowering her usage - Simplify
  • calling them a "public health risk. - Maybe make this a separate sentence?
  • newly elected - Simple?
  • criticizing - Simple?
  • participated - Simple?
  • Also that month, she supported Pelosi becoming Speaker of the House saying she would support - Make into two sentences.
  • noting that all the other candidates for speaker were more conservative than Pelosi was - Make a separate sentence.
  • The House of Representatives voted Pelosi Speaker - Is this transitive construction simple?
  • In December 2018, during the orientation for new members of the House hosted by the John F. Kennedy School of Government, Ocasio-Cortez wrote on Twitter about the effects of business interests by groups such as the American Enterprise Institute and the Center for Strategic and International Studies: "Lobbyists are here. Goldman Sachs is here. Where's labor? Activists? Frontline community leaders?" - Too long. Break up into smaller sentences. Also, is orientation simple?

Sorry that's all I have for now. I'll try to go through a bit more this week. --Yottie =talk= 19:03, 9 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Review (4)[change source]

Hello, here are my comments. Note that my native tongue isn't English so some commments may not apply.

  • It would be good to mention that she is a (probably native) Spanish speaker, quite early in the article. While we learn that her familiy is from Puerto Rico, it would perhaps make sense to add that. Alternative: add a line to the infobox.
  • Would it make sense to merge 'early life' and 'education' (the early life section is much smaller than the other sections?
  • AOC was supported by ... -> ... supported AOC ... (use active tense)? - Just a suggestion (in 2018 campaign); similar problems in other sections.
  • When quoting election or vote results either use percentages, or the absolute numbers, but not both in the same sententence.
  • "In February 2019, speaking during a Congressional hearing, Ocasio-Cortez questioned..." -> "When OC was speaking during a congessional heraring in February 2019..." or "In Feb 2019, when she was speaking during, OC ..." or similar.

But all of this is just nitpicking, I think the article is a very good state to be promoted. --Eptalon (talk) 19:53, 10 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Eptalon: I addressed all the issues except the native Spanish speaker since not all Puerto Ricans are fluent Spanish speakers and I wouldn't want to assume so. Thank you for the feedback! --TDKR Chicago 101 (talk) 06:44, 11 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Too long[change source]

When a page gets to be 135,000 bytes it is just too damn long. For sure, its length will be an issue for poor readers of English (we're supposed to be looking after their interests). I notice she's an "American critic"... really! Because she's critical of the social situation in her country does not make her a member of that category! Macdonald-ross (talk) 19:35, 23 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

One thing to be mindful of is that the line where we consider splitting a page is 50,000 bytes of readable prose so that excludes things like templates and references. A very large part of the 135k on this page are references so its actually probably pretty close to the 50k point where you need to start splitting stuff out to other pages. -Djsasso (talk) 12:15, 10 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
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