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This is the place to ask any questions you have about the Simple English Wikipedia. Any general discussions or anything of community interest is also appropriate here.

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Future big weekend topics

I have posted a proposal here and would welcome comments or alternative proposals. Thanks, Racepacket (talk) 01:41, 1 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Location or geography was a common factor in the Capital Cities Weekend (CCW) and the Big Airport Weekend (BAW).

Also, I noticed the twin concepts of general public use and something which might be of personal interest to contributors.

IMO, future weekend projects should incorporate these general categories. Potential "hooks" might include:

  • Museums, art galleries, libraries?
  • Forests, Parks, gardens?
  • Bridges, roads, dams, harbors?
In these kinds of contexts, a range of individual preferences are likely to emerge. This encourages participation. --Horeki (talk) 19:32, 2 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
These are all excellent ideas that apply to geographical locations around the world. Please participate in the discussion at: Wikipedia talk:Big Weekend. Thanks, Racepacket (talk) 21:56, 2 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I have nothing more to add. After CCW and BAW, the follow-up omitted two questions:
A. What worked?
B. Why?
Such questions are part of a strategy which is deductive and cumulative and open-ended. --Horeki (talk) 00:10, 3 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I think the weekends have worked because they are not specific to a certain region, meaning everybody can contribute to articles about their local area. DJDunsie (talk) 07:04, 3 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Perhaps WW2 aircraft weekend (mentioned below)? That fits the non-regional description, and editors can contribute to their local area or nationality! BTW I particpated in Big airport weekend by making two articles, Meigs Field and Davenport Municipal Airport. Shakinglord (talk) 18:21, 3 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I am sorry I missed Shakinglord in the count. Please hold this discussion on Wikipedia talk:Big Weekend. Thanks, Racepacket (talk) 07:50, 4 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Wikimania 2012

The deadline for scholarship applications for this conference is fast approaching; I strongly recommend that our active users apply for scholarships if they are able to make time that weekend to attend. It looks like it'll be a fantastic event, and it'd be great if our project was represented there. Info here. sonia♫ 19:27, 1 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

This time being held in Washington D.C., a very interesting city to visit. Macdonald-ross (talk) 10:14, 3 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Portals

Would love to have simple portals around, if this passes, I am one of the editors encouraged to works on portals, since I have worked on portals in enwiki, would love to see it here. Opinions? --Extra 999 (Contact me + contribs) 09:31, 3 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

We already decided not to go for that idea. Shortage of active editors is the reason. Macdonald-ross (talk) 10:12, 3 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Instead, can you organize specific fields of knowledge by leaving helpful text on the category pages instead or by adding a navigation template for the topic? Racepacket (talk) 02:17, 5 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
No harm trying that (Racepacket's suggestion) out. Sounds like a good idea, in my opinion. Chenzw  Talk  02:24, 5 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

WW2 aircraft spree

I'm starting a small article creating campaign for aircraft of the Second World War, military and otherwise. Before I started i wanted some concensus of the article titles, if they should have the company name, number and codename, as in English Wikipedia (e.g Mitsubishi A6M Zero) or just the number and codename (e.g. A6M Zero). Feel free to join in the article creating spree! Shakinglord (talk) 15:50, 3 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Keep them the same as en.wiki as it avoids confustion. But make sure you put some detail into the articles, don't just create a lot of single sentence stubs as we have had trouble with editors who have gone on sprees of creating hundreds of articles with only single sentences. -DJSasso (talk) 15:55, 3 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I used to be on the new pages patrol. I hated those one sentence articles! Shakinglord (talk) 18:18, 3 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

AWB run needed

Currently the majority (if not all) of the articles in the subcats of Category:Canadian ice hockey players by province or territory are also listed in Category:Canadian ice hockey players. As the "by province/territory" is a subcat of the main category Canadian Ice hockey players, no article in the subcats should also be included in the main cat. (ie. If the person is an ice hockey player from Ottawa, he is already listed as a Canadian ice hockey player - by a subcat - and doesn't need to be listed a second time - in the main cat.) As there are 260+ articles in the sub cats, this removal of the text "[[category:Canadian ice hockey player]]" from each of the pages is a bit daunting by hand but relatively simple for AWB. It would not clear all of them as there is likely to be some with a sort key added, but as there are 338 people listed in the main cat and only 260+ already moved to subcats, I can handle a quick sweep of the main cat to separate the players by province/territory afterwards which would still be needed and I would catch the stragglers.

tl:dr - AWB run needed on all subcategories of Category:Canadian ice hockey players by province or territory to remove the text "[[category:Canadian ice hockey player]]". 70.184.171.16 (talk) 07:33, 4 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
So shall I start a run? AWB can handle that rather quickly. Chenzw  Talk  07:48, 4 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
After the sorting, there are 91 articles which have not been placed into the sub cats yet. Chenzw  Talk  09:00, 4 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks. I should be able to get to the rest Sat or Sun overnight (depending on how work goes). 91 is a lot better than 240 + 91 :) 70.184.171.16 (talk) 09:34, 4 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Could you actually not do it yet. There is a reason they are split like that and I will be doing something with it in a bit. They should actually be two separate sets of categories. Unfortunately the one cat was originally created with the word players in it and it should not have been. I was about to start doing the fixing today when I saw alot of the the work you guys did. For those wondering, the Ice hockey players from category is a people from subcategory. You can only be from the place you were born whereas the other is a sporting nationality category. (ie you can be from Ontario, but be an American ice hockey player) The categories were about to be changed today from saying players to people like on en to make this distinction more clear. -DJSasso (talk) 13:51, 4 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Nevermind I do see now that they have all pretty much been done already, I'll just fix them the slower way now. :) -DJSasso (talk) 13:53, 4 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
There they have been fixed now, having them as a subcategory of the players category implied that anyone in the sub category also fit into the parent category which wasn't true and why they should have been split. I realized the mistake awhile ago but hadn't gotten to fixing it on my todo list until I saw someone remove a category last night that shouldn't have been so I planed to do it today and when I got here I saw this. -DJSasso (talk) 14:59, 4 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
This situation is a bit widespread in that certain people categories will give false positives in some cases but are generally correct. Often people are "from" a certain location without that being a nationality but that cat falls back to a nationality. This happens when someone is notable for being from there (ie. sports players notable for playing for a certain team but they were born in another city/state/country can get traced back through the cat tree to a group they don't belong to). Short of creating subcats such as "Ice hockey players from Ottawa who are not Canadians" or "Icelandic ice hockey players who played in Vancouver" this is always likely to be an issue. And then we get to the issue of having to wait until we get 3-4 non US Yankee players before the ones we have can be put in a category under the Yankees. and then <my head exploded>.... The question is how much of an issue it brings up. Most people rarely notice the tree at all and just look for a commonality of "this article" to other similar ones so I'm not certain the odd corner cases like these are even noticed by most people. 70.184.171.16 (talk) 08:09, 5 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Moved from WP:AN. CRRaysHead90 | We Believe! 08:48, 4 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Hi! Can you replace File:Wiki.png with a new one? Thank you. --Ikh Sukhbaatar (talk) 02:14, 4 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

It has been discussed in the past and has not had consensus. -DJSasso (talk) 02:16, 4 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I support the update. CRRaysHead90 | We Believe! 05:03, 4 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
That will have to be discussed on WP:ST as it is a side-wide thing and not administrator-specific. Chenzw  Talk  05:59, 4 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Reluctant (oppose) - I actually prefer the older logo, and would prefer that it stay this way unless the WMF requires that the logo be changed on all wikis. Chenzw  Talk  09:03, 4 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I'd prefer to keep the old logo. It might not be the newest one but most members of the community are happy with it. -Orashmatash (talk) 11:06, 4 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose – I like the old logo better. DJDunsie (talk) 11:13, 4 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose Racepacket (talk) 12:58, 4 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
The old logo is missing letters than the new one. So I Support the new one. --Ikh Sukhbaatar (talk) 13:05, 4 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Charles Spurgeon

Charles Spurgeon is at Wikipedia:Proposed article demotion. Albacore (talk · changes) 02:24, 5 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Checking how simple text is

Could someone remind me what the websites/tools are for checking whether something qualifies as Simple English, or measuring the grade level of text? Thanks. --Auntof6 (talk) 10:14, 5 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The trouble with some of the indicies is that they are based, in part, on the number of syllables in each word. Some articles require the use of technical terms. Even if the terms are properly explained, they raise the complexity score. So, for example, an article on "Antidisestablismentarianism" is doom to get a low score no matter how simple the overall text. Racepacket (talk) 12:29, 5 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Information on the Firefox Simple English Dictionary posted recently by Peterdownunder. Osiris (talk) 23:50, 5 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Issues with categories

There seems to be a problem with template-generated categorisation, where the pages aren't showing up on the category pages.

I've noticed this issue for a while, but wasn't sure whether it was just caching or the job queue. Hoping there's someone who can give me an explanation or a solution. Osiris (talk) 00:26, 6 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Well for the first one I am going to assume its caching, unless you refreshed the cache of the page you probably wouldn't have seen it. For the other two the template that puts those two categories into the backlog category only does it when there is more than a certain number of pages in the respective categories. As both are empty they are not in the backlog category. -DJSasso (talk) 12:32, 9 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Now that I notice you wrote this a few days ago when it was probably filled with articles I am going to say it was probably caching but I am not sure. -DJSasso (talk) 12:33, 9 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Perhaps we need a cache-clear button on the backlog. Shakinglord (talk) 16:32, 9 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I just recommend people enable the "Live Clock" gadget in your preferences. It puts a clock in your upper right hand corner of the screen which when clicked clears the cache of a page. -DJSasso (talk) 16:35, 9 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Cleared the cache a number of times. I think I even edited the page and it still wouldn't appear. It obviously wasn't only me not seeing it in there, as it wasn't deleted until Creol did something to it (3 days after I tagged it). As for the other ones, when I posted this thread (6 Feb) both of those categories were full of something (RFP had Bluegoblin7's RFA and the QD cat was full of Racepacket's articles). Having said that, whatever Creol has done has gotten everything working fine now. Osiris (talk) 06:04, 10 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
It was odd.. It wasn't in the category before I started playing. I cleared the cat on the template (it isn't really needed as {{qd}} applies it by default) and it popped up in the category. Undoing my edit didn't make it un-appear though and it stayed through a couple other tests. It does seem to be a system maintenance issue and the system finally noticed it on my playing with the template... The monthly cats are notorious for it already, but they can usually be forced into recognizing the cat qd on a blind save (edit->save, no change needed) 70.184.171.16 (talk) 07:04, 10 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
In that case I am thinking it probably fell out of the job queue the first time and Creols edit put it back in to be fixed. -DJSasso (talk) 15:04, 10 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

This keeps coming back. I do think it's probably a job queue issue. The limits on transclusions of {{admin backlog}} won't work, nor will the auto-tagging of {{monthly clean-up category}}—see for example this empty one. I guess it's not a huge deal, just a bit annoying. Osiris (talk) 07:37, 12 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The Monthly auto-delete has seems to always have been an issue. Its a matter of either waiting for the next maintenance run/slot in queue to pick up the template state change or forcing it to reset and be included (Change page->save page, no changed done). This is likely the same with backlog - just because the template on the page can see it's location's status has changed does not mean the system has noticed it yet. 70.184.171.16 (talk) 09:06, 12 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Medical articles in Simple English, part II

I have just formatted and inserted the Strep throat article on behalf of the enwiki WikiProject Medicine translation task force. Any feedback that could be provided will be appreciated. sonia♫ 06:56, 9 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

My initial check was a simple readablity level scan of it. Given that it's a technical (medical) text, the numbers are expected to be a tad higher than normal. Unfortunately, with a 10.2 average (9.2 - 12.1 range) this is more than a tad high. The 57.4 reading ease level is not too bad, but could use some work. I'm off to beat it with a simple stick and see how much damage I can do to those scores. 19.15 words per sentence shouldnt be hard to improve on. There is also a lack of linking on non-SE terms to be dealt with. 70.184.171.16 (talk) 07:27, 9 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I made a few edits, sorry for the conflict, but I'll leave you to edit it now. Thanks for helping out! Dcoetzee (talk) 07:38, 9 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
This seems like a worthwhile goal. I have a couple days off work - let me know what I can do to help. Kansan (talk) 07:41, 9 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
The beating with the simple stick seems to have had a bit of an effect - 8.2 readability average now (with three 7th's in there) and 68 ease score. Only lost 4 words per sentence (which I'm dissappointed about..) but still something. Lots of big words that cannot be worked around here so its a bit over the 7th grade limit. 70.184.171.16 (talk) 08:36, 9 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I have to say I'm not a great fan of this page as it stands, though I see it's got a GA on enWP. IMO it's not even close to that standard. Our version goes on too long, and in too much detail. As a result some things which are absolutely fundamental get left far too late. You need to say right early on why tests are done. The reasons are 1. The physician usually can't see what causes it just by looking, and 2. In fact, the symptoms are most often caused by viruses, not bacteria. Also, the intro should say clearly that most cases clear up in a few days with no treatment at all. It takes 24/48 hours to do a 'throat culture' (I've never seen the results come back in less than two days!).
The issue of uncontrolled prescribing of antibiotics leading to multiple resistance is extremely important. A generation of young doctors is learning why anitbiotics should not be prescribed unless clearly necessary, yet some medical articles like this blithely talk in language of a generation ago. What I'm saying is that simplification is not the only issue when one is in a technical area like this; and (once again) it is often unwise to import whole articles from enWP. Macdonald-ross (talk) 13:45, 10 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
IMHO, the issue with excessive prescription of antibiotics and the effects of this problem is not just not not extremely important, its immaterial here. While it certainly is an issue in general, that issue is something that needs to be covered under antibiotics, not strep throat. Including a "warning label" on every article that mentions antibiotics is hardly needed. This would be akin to adding a bit to any article that mentions a gun that says "Guns kill xx.xxx million people each year. Extreme care should be used when handling a gun." - Useful information, but it should be in the Gun article, not every article that links to Gun. At best, "Antibiotics can be used to treat Strep throat, but [[Antibiotics#Dangers|this is not always a good idea]]." could be used but even this is not really relevant to what Strep throat is and only of limited use to how it can be treated. (as you point out, the doctor should already know this and should take it into consideration with all due warnings to the patient on saving the antibiotics and using some later. 70.184.171.16 (talk) 01:35, 11 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
With respect, you are missing the point. The page ventures into treatment, rather than just a description of the condition. Once it does that, its account of treatment is open to question. On its account of treatment, I just don't think it represents modern thinking in a sufficiently balanced way. Others may think differently; the issue should be adjudicated by reference to recent reliable sources.
I did not advocate any general rule about antibiotics, but if anyone thinks I exaggerated, consider the implications of this: TB (tuberculosis) has appeared in parts of India which is totally resistant to all known antibiotics.
It is a separate issue, but I think medical articles on this wiki should be careful on the question of treatment. Our general rule is 'we're not a 'how-to-do-it wiki'. It may be we should relax that restriction where, as with medicine, the readership would have a genuine interest in treatment. Still, as I say, we've not actually discussed that point. Macdonald-ross (talk) 07:49, 11 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
The treatment section is supported by 7 different review articles most of which where published in the last 3-5 years. Per the guideline for referencing medical material these are the highest quality sources http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:MEDRS While some people advocate not treating otitis media, sinusitis, and acute bronchitis with antibiotics no one within the medical community advocates not treating strep throat with antibiotics. If I have misinterpreted the concern in question please rephrase it for me.Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 06:04, 12 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
OK, that and the discussion on the talk page satisfies me, especially the point made by Doc J. on the talk page, that this bacterium has not yet developed resistance to penicillin. This interesting and important fact could go into the article, I think. Also, where the article uses the general term 'antibiotics', perhaps it should really say 'penicillin' or 'penicillin V'. Might be worth Doc J. checking our stub on rheumatic fever. Macdonald-ross (talk) 10:26, 12 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
While Pen V is the first line treatment, many people say they are allergic and some truly are thus occasionally we use second line medications such as erythromycin sometimes. I will dig up a ref and add this though as I agree with Mac that it is an important point.Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 15:20, 12 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

MediaWiki 1.19

(Apologies if this message isn't in your language.) The Wikimedia Foundation is planning to upgrade MediaWiki (the software powering this wiki) to its latest version this month. You can help to test it before it is enabled, to avoid disruption and breakage. More information is available in the full announcement. Thank you for your understanding.

Guillaume Paumier, via the Global message delivery system (wrong page? You can fix it.). 15:18, 12 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Medical articles in Simple English, part III

As part of a translation project as outlined here we will be generating 80 or so simplified medical articles. I know that some here do not find them simple enough but would like to remind people that this is a starting point. And based on the guidance from the main page of simple Wikipedia that "Simple does not mean short. Writing in Simple English means that simple words are used. It does not mean readers want basic information." If there is support to put these articles in the main space than we will do so. Else I can place them all as sub articles of my talk page. If this is not allowed I am than happy to move them to my own wiki or the main English wiki. Happy to hear comments. If consensus is that people do not wish this content here all I ask is that people hold off deleting it until I have a chance to move it to my own wiki.--Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 15:33, 12 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Please not that the articles you are about to create are highly technical. Even if you sipmlify them to a level where they are probably understandable to our readers, please make sure to also create the articles linked, where they do not exist. I have made the experience that there are many subjects where you happen to only have one editor knolwedgeable enough to create the article. Yes, I know, the medical world generally agrees on the meaning of "tonsils" or "pus", yet there seem to be few editors motivated enough to create those articles; so when you create the "interesting articles", please make sure to also leave us with understandable stubs on the annex ones we can understand, to expand later. --Eptalon (talk) 21:09, 12 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
If we are needing definitions we could just link to Wiktionary... Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 18:13, 15 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

New big weekend proposal

Hello, all. I've proposed a new big weekend here. Feel free to input your suggestions there. Shakinglord (talk) 16:16, 13 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

On the s-block

I copied the table from en:s-block to s-block. What's wrong? --Kc kennylau (talk) 13:00, 16 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Big Artillery Weekend

I am starting Big Artillery Weekend. The basis is to contribute to any and all eras of artillery, from Medievial to Modern, and all kinds of artillery, including rocket artillery. Jobs will include article creation, tagging, improving and others. It will start February 18th and end February 20th. Feel free to input suggestions, reports, comments below. `Shakinglord (talk) 20:46, 16 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I'd recommend that the weekend code be "BARW" to avoid confusing it with the Big Airport Weekend. -Orashmatash (talk) 20:47, 16 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Issues with Navigation Popups?

Has anyone else noticed issues with Popups since the recent software upgrade (if anyone else here even uses them)? They're working OK on enwiki, so I suspect they just need updating here. If no one else has reported this, I'll report it over on enwiki -- let me know. --Auntof6 (talk) 21:07, 16 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Most likely due to the MediaWiki software upgrade; I am having the same issue. It's got some JavaScript code in it which automatically loads the latest version from ENWP and since they have it fixed I'm not sure why it's not working here. -Orashmatash (talk) 21:16, 16 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
The script is hard-coded to load from https://secure.wikimedia.org/ which is having problems today. It should be changed to just the second mw.loader.load line. Let me know if you find other problems that might be 1.19's fault. -- ☠MarkAHershberger☢(talk)☣ 23:35, 16 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
The fix was trivial and should be working now. -- ☠MarkAHershberger☢(talk)☣ 23:38, 16 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks, but it still looks wonky. Here's a screenshot of what came up when I hovered my cursor over Qadar Yar.

bordered

Normally that information comes up in a window, not as text overlaying the other text on the page. Also, the text that pops up doesn't go away when I move the cursor off of the link. --Auntof6 (talk) 05:25, 17 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for providing the screenshot. I see this displayed normally, so I'm not sure yet what the problems is. -- ☠MarkAHershberger☢(talk)☣ 13:42, 17 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I'm getting the same, but mainly just on most category pages. I have hard refreshed a page affected - no change. Turned off the gadjet, hard refreshed and no popup as expected, turned it back on, refreshed, and back to not working. It is the same on both Chrome and IE9 (clean ie9, never been used on this site before so nothing to hook on). Affecting at least Vector, Nostalgia and monobook skins. --Creol(talk) 06:35, 17 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for the browser information and pages where you're seeing this. Investigating. -- ☠MarkAHershberger☢(talk)☣ 13:42, 17 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Confirmed on Category pages. Thanks for the report! -- ☠MarkAHershberger☢(talk)☣ 13:44, 17 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Punjabi Articles

I've noticed an awful lot of articles being created by IP users / no-edit new users about Punjabi regions and people, which tend to be written in poor English and are on subjects that seem not very notable (but do seem to be real). Examples - Qadar Yar, most of the changes by Tegjveer singh, Yahya Mirza Eskandari, etc.

Since I'm not an expert on the subject, I was wondering if someone could look into them and see if they're actually notable / good for Wikipedia. Thanks. (: [+piccolo] 01:59, 17 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Yes we have a known Pakistan vandal. This is probably them at it again. -DJSasso (talk) 03:38, 17 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
In total, there are perhaps 2-3 editors creating articles about Pakistan, Bangladesh or India. They mostly used IPs so far. One of them probably created an account. Rather than directly deleting the articles, I propose we run them through a "sanity check" (and perhaps a regular RFD), if they look that they could be notable. When I patrolled some of the articles, they looked half-way reasonable as to subject matter (I am not talking about language here, as it can be improved)--Eptalon (talk) 08:48, 17 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

A lot of these have been directly copied from books or websites. Qadar Yar was one of the few for which I couldn't find any evidence of copying. I should note that one of the users, 82.9.215.103, is blocked on enwp. Osiris (talk) 16:00, 17 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

'View history' change

I notice the 'View history' record now gives us pluses and minuses, but no summaries of total bytes. Is it possible for us to have that information as well? It can be quite useful. Macdonald-ross (talk) 18:10, 17 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

It might be a feature of MediaWiki 1.19, I believe, but I'd have to get that checked.  Hazard-SJ  ㋡  18:33, 17 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
You will have to go comment at the tracking page on meta to ask. -DJSasso (talk) 18:38, 17 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
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