Wikipedia:Simple talk

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
(Redirected from Wikipedia:ST)
Jump to navigation Jump to search



Request for Review[change source]

Hi, can somebody review the changes I Made at the "Nigger" Wikipedia article? Apologies if there is a better place to request this, yet. want I want to make sure the wording is correct, especially on such a sensitive article like this. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 206.180.116.2 (talkcontribs) 17:47, 12 February 2020 (UTC)

Toolbar missing in Opera browser[change source]

The edit toolbar is missing while I am using the Opera browser. Anyone else having problems? If I switch to Google Chrome, it all works perfectly. Also, notifications aren't loading in Opera either.Peterdownunder (talk) 05:26, 1 March 2020 (UTC)

Peterdownunder, what version of opera are you using? have you enabled pop-ups? --Thegooduser Let's Talk! :) 🍁 01:40, 12 March 2020 (UTC)
I have version 67.0.3575.53, and pop ups are enabled for Simple English Wikipedia.Peterdownunder (talk) 20:28, 12 March 2020 (UTC)
Peterdownunder, Have you checked to see if Java script is enabled? It looks like you have the latest version of opera browser (never hurts to check for updates). The same case happens with me too when I use firefox, none of my scripts work, I guess each web browser has a different way of reading the Wikipedia content/data pages... Also which os are you using? --Thegooduser Let's Talk! :) 🍁 03:47, 14 March 2020 (UTC)
Javascript is enabled, and I am using the latest version of Windows 10 (64bit). Peterdownunder (talk) 06:55, 20 March 2020 (UTC)
Peterdownunder, Hmmm, I don't Know what's wrong then... It might be a browser to browser thing, it happens to me when I use Firefox where none of the scripts work, but it does on other browsers. --Thegooduser Let's Talk! :) 🍁 15:41, 20 March 2020 (UTC)

Population of infoboxes from Wikidata[change source]

COVID-19 disease infobox from English Wikipedia, this is what I want adapted to pull text from Wikidata into Simple English Wikipedia

It is possible to populate infoboxes with content from Wikidata. Simple English Wikipedia is the ideal place to develop this practice because infoboxes require plain language, and should be human readable, and because infobox content is the most popular content for translation in all Wikimedia projects, and if we actually had monitoring systems in place would be a powerful hub for applying AI quality control at scale across Wikimedia projects.

The reason why I think this matters is because Simple English Wikipedia could curate a style for using simple language in these boxes. If people here could actually make this work, then Simple English Wikipedia could manage infoboxes for all the language Wikipedias which otherwise do not have an editing community managing these boxes. It is very easy to get people to translate the terms in these boxes at scale, but very hard to organize local language discussion about what goes in these boxes.

Prior discussion about Wikidata connection is in Catalan, Russian, French, and some other languages. English Wikipedia has a pilot for this in telescopes, such as at en:Very Large Array. Other than for telescopes English Wikipedia has various reasons why expanding the Wikidata infobox pilot is not appropriate for right now. Simple English's smaller community probably could come to agreement about an appropriate pilot here.

Personally, I am very keen on getting Wikidata infoboxes for health topics because I want to provide them in various languages in the developing world where otherwise we will not be delivering content for some years. If I had good Simple English boxes then I can collaborate with the Wikimedia Medicine organization to execute the translations.

Has the discussion about infoboxes + Wikidata already come to Simple English Wikipedia in the past? If so, can people point to them? Is there anyone here who participated in these previous discussions in any language of Wikipedia? What are anyone's general feelings about the potential of Simple English Wikipedia to become the default source for infobox content for any language Wikipedia which wants infoboxes but otherwise does not have a community curating them? Thanks. Blue Rasberry (talk) 21:21, 17 March 2020 (UTC)

Good idea, will keep our article updated. However, concerns is how will the maintance be, we have very little active editors. It cannot be having too many templates that need to be changed on a regular basis or modules that needs importation so often. It will overwhelm us. I prefer the status quo if this is too complicated. Wikipedia isn't supposed to be relied upon as a reliable source (per standard medical disclaimers) and there is no time limit. Let's see does the pro outweights the cons before implementation. Thanks for the idea anyway.Camouflaged Mirage (talk) 08:50, 18 March 2020 (UTC)
@Camouflaged Mirage: The situation is not as you described. Briefly in response to some of your points
  • No, there is little or no burden of maintenance in this proposal. The major labor required is conversation about implementation, and the labor of implementation and content development comes from elsewhere.
  • No, this does not require many templates. We could start with any number, 1-3. English Wikipedia just has one right now. There are two kinds of setup for this - content and modules. The modules already exist and get maintained elsewhere so no labor is needed for that. For content we could just apply the existing infobox template.
If Simple English Wikipedia could actually adopt this already existing technology, then it is within the realm of possibility that Simple English soon becomes equal in importance and to English Wikipedia with very few social changes. Not unlikely also, within 3 years Simple English Wikipedia would have more content contributors and editors than English Wikipedia.
Margaret Sanger Simple English Wikipedia infobox. The proposal is to take this information from Wikidata instead of having editors write and monitor this content here.
I will describe what I want and the labor it would take. Consider the biography for Margaret Sanger. There is an infobox there. Here is my proposal:
  1. The Simple English Wikipedia either does nothing whatsoever, or otherwise, discusses social and community issues
  2. I arrange to replace the Simple English Wikipedia infobox in that article with a template called {{Wikidata infobox person}}
  3. Now instead of requiring content or editing in Simple English Wikipedia, the corresponding content comes from Wikidata's Margaret Sanger (Q285514).
The labor requested of Simple English Wikipedia editors would not be to monitor the content, but to decide what fields go into infoboxes and what the names for those fields should be.
Pros:
  1. Simple English Wikipedia gets a huge amount of infobox content
  2. Simple English Wikipedia gets the focus of the huge multilingual Wikidata community
  3. Very likely, 1000 editors will edit Simple English Wikipedia through Wikidata within months
  4. This has been done before for other language communities, so norms are established and we have some idea of what to expect
  5. If Simple English Wikipedia does this, then very likely, the practice here would become the default for all language Wikipedias, which would position Simple English in a global leadership position
Cons
  1. The quality monitoring systems, while very good, are still targeted to Wikidata users
  2. People could edit Simple English Wikipedia from Wikidata, which would reduce the independence of this project
Further thoughts? Blue Rasberry (talk) 15:39, 18 March 2020 (UTC)
Is there a way to see a sample of this, maybe on one of our pages? It sounds good, given that it does not require extra effort here. But there are many details it would be good to see. Desertborn (talk) 08:48, 19 March 2020 (UTC)
@Desertborn, Camouflaged Mirage: I am unable to do a quick demo here in Simple English Wikipedia because setup requires a multi-part import of templates. For now I can show you the same thing in other Wikimedia projects. If we do a pilot here then I can import the templates.
Consider English Wikipedia en:Very Large Array. Look at the box, then look at the source code of the page. See that the box comes from
en:Template:Infobox telescope
The telescope is not the best first example for Simple English because I am unclear if it is possible to simplify precise technical terms, but it is the test case in discussion since about 2017 in English Wikipedia. Telescope was chosen for English Wikipedia in part because those terms in the box are so well defined the lexicon of the field.
What I want of Simple English Wikipedia is to establish any infoboxes like that here.
A more commonplace and less scientific example is in Catalan Wikipedia, where they use Wikidata-based infoboxes for many things including biographies. See ca:Margaret Sanger and try clicking the edit boxes there. Documentation is at ca:Plantilla:Infotaula persona/ús, and currently, no similar documentation or infobox development exists in English.
The new editing model to notice is that structured data goes to and comes from Wikidata. If for example someone edits the occupation for a person through Catalan Wikipedia (to Wikidata), and no one has added this information in Simple English Wikipedia, then the Catalan editor's edit would appear here in Simple English Wikipedia, assuming that there is a Simple English name for that occupation.
Thoughts? Blue Rasberry (talk) 12:47, 19 March 2020 (UTC)
Our infoboxes generally follow en.wiki's infoboxes. As they switch over we will naturally switch over. We already have a number that pull from wikidata. We generally try not to have such templates get too far out of wack with en.wiki's as it helps with maintenance over here. In saying that I don't really think we should switch over until the infoboxes at en.wiki switch over. -DJSasso (talk) 15:17, 19 March 2020 (UTC)
@Djsasso: Which ones already pull from Wikidata?
I am not looking for a mass shift right now. I am seeking a pilot of some number of articles to see how it would work to collaborate across languages and projects. Do you already have a pilot for this? Blue Rasberry (talk) 20:53, 19 March 2020 (UTC)

Propose pilot[change source]

I propose "Wikidata linked infoboxes for Simple English Wikipedia", a pilot project to do the following:

  1. Create a documentation page for Wikidata infoboxes here on Simple English Wikipedia. I will direct the talk page from there to here at Simple Talk
  2. Import Wikidata-based infobox templates and modules from other Wikipedias, including English and Catalan, for deployment into Simple English Wikipedia
  3. Deploy Wikidata-based infoboxes in Simple English Wikipedia in not more than 100 articles to start
  4. Solicit comment continuously from beginning
  5. Call for judgement, probably within 3 months, where options for next steps might be
    1. More infoboxes, perhaps 1-10,000
    2. or remove existing ones
    3. or watch and wait longer

Success criteria

  1. No existing editor at Simple English Wikipedia gains a labor burden
    1. I think that I can do this project without obligating anyone to do things for me
    2. I gratefully welcome support and collaboration though
    3. The response which I want most is social and ideological support for this pilot and its possible progression
  2. Everyone has fun
  3. existing editors here at Simple find the changes as either good or tolerable
    1. The content is tolerable
    2. Any technical changes, like the templates, are tolerable
  4. Simple English Wikipedia gets more conversation and contributors
    1. Increased participation in the Simple English part of Wikidata
    2. Increased participation here in Simple English Wikipedia itself

Thoughts? Blue Rasberry (talk) 12:13, 20 March 2020 (UTC)

  • Support as proposer. Blue Rasberry (talk) 12:13, 20 March 2020 (UTC)
  • Tentative Support for a limited trial, sticking closely to what is already being done in enwiki. But I do have a lot of questions still. As the lone member of WikiProject Mountains, I wonder what this would mean for Infobox mountain. One concern is that a lot of the info may not be in wikidata and it would be a huge task to load it into wikidata. Also we have references often in the infoboxes. I do have some concern how those would be handled. For example, in the Mountain inbox it is not uncommon to have a reference that is later used again in a different part of the article. If the infobox is converted we would need to likely move those into the article itself? Is that correct? Otherwise we would lose those references. So while I have tentative support for the concept, I still worry about how it will be implemented. Desertborn (talk) 12:35, 20 March 2020 (UTC)
@Desertborn: Probably good first cases are articles which do not have an infobox at all. By posting an infobox where none existed, we should be bringing in content without changing what anyone else already posted. Depending on labor and anyone's interest, anyone could attempt to address any of the several complicated situations by editing, discussing, and proposing a best practice. If we do the pilot then I would start the list of challenges, and the two you described would go on that list. Yes, I think as you say, moving the citation from the infobox to the body of the article seems like the best practice, and moving content from here to Wikidata would be another best practice. I recognize the tentative nature of your support and I am ready to consider any compromises you might request, if you want more caution from me. Blue Rasberry (talk) 14:32, 20 March 2020 (UTC)
  • Support Having data that updates automatically will help so much with upkeep. Questions: Are your first 100 articles all coming from medicine/health related articles? How will you choose articles that don't have an infobox, since it is random which ones do? Once a wikidata infobox template is finalized and everyone loves it, will the regular infoboxes redirect? Or will that fall under the new page patrollers to know which infoboxes to add? Thanks!--Tbennert (talk) 01:32, 21 March 2020 (UTC)
@Tbennert:
  • sorts of infoboxes - A different infobox is required for each sort of article, and I would have to different technical setup to try each one. I anticipate that immediately on import people would request changes, and the changes would apply to all the boxes, so having fewer sorts of boxes is easier especially until we understand how this works. "Biography" is the most common type of box and probably the easiest to present. "Telescope" is the test case in English Wikipedia, but that was chosen because its fields are technical language and there is a very tight editing and reading community in that space. I personally am interested in medicine and would find a pilot there very valuable but for several reasons this would be very hard.
  • status quo boxes - If this pilot were very successful then I would expect the status quo boxes to still be in use for years, possibly 5 years. Individual editors would have to adopt the wikidata boxes one article at a time, and there would only be a complete shift with near unanimous support. The way I am imagining for now, we have a pilot with 1-100 Wikidata boxes and use those as conversation items to understand what can go wrong, what Wikidata can give, and what would be required for next steps.
  • finalizing the Wikidata infobox template - Some things are very easy, like dates and locations. Some things are very hard, like any freeform text currently in infoboxes or any concept in an infobox for which there is not a corresponding Wikidata item. I think with a demo the limits and challenges would become much more obvious. There will be challenges and an early step would be to identify them and estimate how much time and labor it would take to address them. There is a lot which I do not know, and I think nobody knows.
Thanks. Blue Rasberry (talk) 17:15, 22 March 2020 (UTC)
  • Oppose at this point. I think Blueraspberry misunderstood what I meant about upkeep and massshifting. The issue isn't the change over, the issue is that the vast majority of what we do for infoboxes (and templates in general) here is to be in synch with en.wiki because most of our pages start as copies from en.wiki. If our infoboxes do not match en.wiki's then we have issues with duplicating and/or with having to constantly change what people bring over with our way of doing things. Your proposal comes from a good place in that you assume it will save us work, but you misunderstand how the community works here. In the end at the current time it would actually lead to much more work here for our editors. This is why I mentioned that our infoboxes will naturally switch over to pulling all their info from wikidata as en.wiki switches over as our infoboxes match theirs (for example telescope now pulls from wikidata because the en infobox does). It isn't the upkeep of the infoboxes themselves that will necessarily cause the work, but that it will change everything about how we bring stuff over to our wiki. When it comes to templates it is a very bad idea for us to be out of synch with en.wiki. -DJSasso (talk) 19:09, 21 March 2020 (UTC)
@Djsasso: Can you please think of your demands which this proposal should meet to gain your support? I want some progress, and I think now is the right time to begin something, but there is no need to be hasty and lots of room for compromise. To start I will offer (1) to set up a project page with good limits (2) not to start anything without getting further comment on that more detailed proposal and (3) to design the proposed pilot in ways to be minimally disruptive. This is a test of technology and while I think people would only take this pilot seriously if it were live in Simple English Wikipedia, it could be in a few low traffic articles. I started discussion at 100 articles but trying only 1 is possible, and I hope that no harm could reasonably come from that. For various reasons I think that English Wikipedia will not have leadership in this, but that Simple English could make an inspiring case. I am not in a hurry, and do not expect your support at this time, but I will share my intent to draft a more complete proposal to address the concerns I am hearing now and I would appreciate your very direct criticism there when I publish that. I admit, there are big challenges here, and even I am not sure about this, but I want the proposal to be available. Blue Rasberry (talk) 16:55, 22 March 2020 (UTC)
In other words, you want to test it out on the Simple English Wikipedia to later make a case for using it on larger projects, like the English Wikipedia? Vermont (talk) 17:17, 22 March 2020 (UTC)
@Vermont: Not exactly. My motivation is that many people in the world learn English as a second language, and I want Simple English Wikipedia to grow as a hub for translation into many languages. I actually want the infoboxes for small language Wikipedias, and I feel like if we could make these in Simple English Wikipedia, then they could spread to every other language from here. I would like every language Wikipedia to have some people editing here in Simple English Wikipedia. English Wikipedia will probably be one of the last Wikipedias to accept Wikidata infoboxes. Blue Rasberry (talk) 18:39, 22 March 2020 (UTC)
  • Comment/question - I personally was very excited when Wikidata was launched, because of the potential of referencing structured data with a common schema, across wikis. That said, I have a few questions about this plan:
    • What does it mean by "tolerable... template changes"? A huge proportion of editors here are not that template-inclined, so one's definition of tolerable will vary. What kind of template changes do you expect will occur in the (a) 0-3 months after implementation and (b) 4-12 months after implementation?
    • Regarding the increase in editors editing this wiki through Wikidata, what is the expected editing volume? 1000 editors is a relatively big number for the current local community to deal with, all the more so if a significant proportion of the 1000 editors edits frequently. Increased activity on this wiki is a double-edged sword - the local community may not have the manpower to keep up with the influx. Chenzw  Talk  14:11, 22 March 2020 (UTC)
I think that before actually starting I should make a documentation page on Simple English Wikipedia page somewhere for the pilot. I could send conversation here but I think everyone would need a page describing expectations, limits, approximate schedules, and goals. Thanks for the questions and ask more, but here is what I have for now:
  • tolerable technical requirements: The 95% of typical editors who want to add content to infoboxes as is will not be exposed to any code. People who edit the fields of the infobox would have to enter the code. Look at ca:Plantilla:Infotaula_persona/ús#Paràmetres to see the table on the right. There are English language words in bold, "birth", "disappearance", "death", etc. Suppose that for "Pseudonym" someone in English Wikipedia wanted to change that to "other names". They would have to edit the word "pseudonym" in the template, which should be a matter of search and replace, and although they would see code, changing single words is easy. To rearrange the sections, like adding a new section comparable to "personal data", that would take more cut and paste manipulation. None of this requires coding skills but also we do not have good Wikidata template documentation.
  • increase in editors: There will be several kinds of new editors. Here is my guess for the types of editors and a count for the next 2 years if we have a pilot:
  1. people who edit Wikidata in their own language, and send information from Wikidata to Simple English through the automated language conversation - 800 editors
  2. people who edit Wikidata in Simple English, which if you did not know, is an option - 100 editors
  3. people who come from any other wiki project to see and try Wikidata infoboxes in English language, and who comment here - 50 editors
  4. people from other language Wikipedias who examine the infoboxes here to bring them into their home wikis - 30 editors
  5. finally, people who for whatever reason hear about infoboxes, but then come to Simple English Wikipedia to explore - 20 editors
My own wish for this pilot is that Simple English Wikipedia becomes a hub for every Wikipedia's discussion of what should go in infoboxes of any language. Wikidata is inappropriate to host that discussion, and individual languages have major differences in their boxes and do not discuss them among themselves. Simple English Wikipedia is a great forum for multilingual people to meet to discuss the common elements of various language Wikipedia articles, and the infobox is a great start. I expect that mostly experienced Wikipedians would be the early base of this. These are all guesses! Blue Rasberry (talk) 18:30, 22 March 2020 (UTC)
Huh? You mean you have a proposal, and need to convince someone, and want to testbed here at simple? I am opposed to such testing. Use betacluster for this I guess? Thanks much.Camouflaged Mirage (talk) 12:19, 31 March 2020 (UTC)

Request for help in fixing big whitespace gap in Mount Everest[change source]

Hi all. Usually I can figure out template issues but I am not sure to do with this one. On Mount Everest you will find a huge empty area in the middle of the page. This is due to how the weatherbox under the Climate heading interacts with infobox and image. Anyone have any idea on how to remove this empty space? Otherwise it makes it seem the page ends much higher up but on scrolling down there is more. I know some whitespace may be good but that is just too much. Any ideas? Desertborn (talk) 12:42, 20 March 2020 (UTC)

Resolved.
@Desertborn: Yes, I added the "width" parameter to the table and set it to "auto" adjust instead of being forced to full screen.
Excellent, thank you! And I appreciate the explanation since that will help me know how to fix similar situations myself in future. Desertborn (talk) 10:17, 21 March 2020 (UTC)

Move page "Reginald Fils-Aime" to "Reggie Fils-Aimé"[change source]

For some reason there's no move button. However, this is the name that most people know him by and the page name on the normal English Wikipedia. I'll add more to the article some other time hopefully. Sebastian Hudak (talk) 06:27, 22 March 2020 (UTC)

Seemed logical enough. So I moved it. Desertborn (talk) 08:03, 22 March 2020 (UTC)

Edits by 152.32.109.101[change source]

I would really like to assume good faith but this page makes me hard for me to do so. Would appreciate if someone can check their edits. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Minorax (talkcontribs) 06:57, 24 March 2020 (UTC)

How to add short description?[change source]

I just wanted to know how to add a short description on an article? Arthurfan828 - CHAT 22:59, 26 March 2020 (UTC)

You would add {{short description|''the short description''}} to the top of an article. We are not currently using this template though.--Tbennert (talk) 04:17, 27 March 2020 (UTC)
You can't do it on simple wikipedia. You have to do it on wikidata. Short description is pulled from wikidata except on en.wiki where they have decided to go their own way. -DJSasso (talk) 17:31, 27 March 2020 (UTC)

User:Thegooduser/WikiProject Japan[change source]

  • This is a new wikiproject. I was told to notify the creation here --Thegooduser Let's Talk! :) 🍁 00:08, 27 March 2020 (UTC)

I need help to edit my draft[change source]

Hi, I'm a serial entrepreneur i want a Wikipedia page about me. As Wikipedia policy i cannot publish article about myself and one of my friend already tried to publish an article about me but an admin delete that article because it doesn't claim notability. So I've created a draft on myself with some sources, can anyone please review my draft User:Syedfalak/draft and add some more reliable sources to make it eligible to publish on Wikipedia? Or can tell me which publications are acceptable as a reliable sources? I would be very grateful if an admin help me with it. Syedfalak (talk) 04:43, 31 March 2020 b(UTC)